What's typical staff turnover and class size in private schools?

[Solo2]

I'm increasingly concerned about rapid staff turnover in my DCs private school - with I think about 9 teachers starting and then leaving within 1 to 2 yrs and of those, 4 teachers all leaving within the last year...This is not the exact figure but more or less so and out of a staff size of about 20.

I wouldn't have expected this speed of turnover in such a short space of time and am worried it indicates problems in the management and of course most worried of all about the several changes of teacher each of my DCs has had for several subjects in the current school year alone.

Staff are also often away sick or training and as the school is trying to recruit yet again, teachers are 'tried out' on various classes, thus increasing the number of teachers my DCs have had for even one subject alone. This lack of continuity isn't good, especially given the fees I'm paying!

Is this unusual for a fee-paying school?

Class size is 24 to 25 per class with 3 classes per year group. Is this about average for a private school? It seems quite high numbers to me.

There isn't an easy and informal way to raise my concerns and in any case, I guess there's little that can be done about the situation. But I'd like to know how this all compares with other people's experience of private schools in the UK.

DD goes to a small prep school.

Class size average in her school is about 12, with one class per year group. DD is in a class of 15 which is one of the largest. The school aims to have small class sizes, it is one of the things they advertise themselves with. There are about 90 children in the school.

Our staff turnover is very low IMO. Some of the teachers have been there for many many years. Two of the teachers have been there for over 30 years. Teachers have left due to retirement or moving from the area, but only two (one class teacher, one SEN teacher leaving this term) during DD's 4 years there. The head did change in our second year also.

There appears to be very little staff sick leave in general, although DD's teacher has had 2x week long absences since Chrstmas, but this is very unusual both for the teacher in question and for the school. They do have time out for training purposes, but no more than the teachers do in the state primary I work in.

Thanks Hulababy. That's v different to my DCs current school but similar to their pre-prep which I was wondering might be the anomaly. In their last school, teachers had been there fro yrs and yrs and rarely if ever left, i rthe time my DCs were there.

In their current school, it seems almost like everyday the children come hom declaring yet anohter newish teacher is now leaving. I also find it strange that parents get to hear this from the children first and usually only just bfeore the teacher leaves.

I'd far rather be officially informed as soon as the school know and before the children are told and get some kind of explanation and reassurance that all is still OK and that continuity of learning will be foremost in the school's mind.

Anyone else with any experiences on this?

DD is in year too. her class has 15 girls with one teacher and two assistants.
All her teachers ( including PE teacher, maths, science, art, music and french) have all been there since she joined school.
I know her pre-prep teacher left last year and her drama teacher is new this year. But thats it

solo, the turnover does seem high. The turnover at DDs school has always been for the sorts of reasons you'd expect - maternity leave (most returning, sometimes job-sharing), retirement or promotion.

As to class sizes - is this primary or secondary? Primary classes I get the impression the norm is somewhere around 15, ranging between say 11-21 - more than 21 would be split into two classes. However at secondary, from what we've seen 22-25 is quite usual in years 7-9, then getting smaller for GCSE and smaller again for A level groups.

DCs classes are 20 max. I wouldn't pay for bigger class sizes frankly.

As for turnover - it odeas seem high. Have you any idea hwere the staff are going? Are they retiring? Leaving to have a baby? Or getting promotion elsewhere?
If not and are just getting jobs elsewhere I'd start asking why.

That does seem a high turnover.

Dd and ds are at a largish prep school attached to the only independent senior school in the area.

Class sizes are 20 in pre-prep, 24 in prep and I'm not sure in Senior School. There are two classes per year group in prep and pre-prep and I think perhaps 5 per year in senior.

Over the last few years in prep and pre-prep there have been maybe 1 or 2 teachers a year leave, usually due to retirement or promotion.

That seems a lot of change. Our class sizes are near 20 but 14 is not unusual. We are a two form per year school. There has been little turn over probably 1 or 2 a year over the last 8 years. Some teachers have been there for 20+ years but those who have left have moved on for retirement or after 5 or so years so a change of school made sense professionally. If the teachers are getting promotions I think it is fine and natural, if they are just leaving perhaps it's not a happy school to work at and that is a problem.

At dds indi secondary there are 24 in a form until year 10 when they become smaller. For some subjects which ar set eg maths, French, Latin, science, the sets are smaller and they have art groups to make them smaller too. There are a lot more staff in a secondary than primary but the turnover was slight last year.

I work in an independent school and have no plans of going anywhere. I would be quite happy to stay until I retire - I love it.

In any school, staff turnover is expected and encouraged. It is good for a new member of staff to stay for 2 - 3 years and then move to a promoted position elsewhere.

Fresh blood is a good thing for most schools, as long as they can balance it with stability via teachers who are happy to grow in their careers in the one job.

Teachers staying because they can't get a job anywhere else is not a good thing. You can't just look at retention figures - you need to look deeper, and that info won't be publicly available.

As for class size - you basically get what you pay for. The majority of schools have charitable status, which basically means that your fees cover operating costs. If your fees are high, you get small class sizes and/or expensive resources. If your fees are lower, the class sizes are larger.

solo I could have written your post. And I am wondering if your DCs are at the same one as mine.

I am very concerned about the high turnover of teachers. My DD has had four chemistry teachers since Christmas. Not great when she is doing it for GCSE.

Reluctant to say more on here but if you are in north Hampshire then I think we might be on the same hymn sheet and would be happy to talk to you off here.

MmeBlueberry - that's v interesting and helps to put this in perspective a bit. Staff have left for varying reasons - ill health, getting married (2 of them), wanting to do further study and one for retirement.

In DCs previous pre-prep., staff turnover was v low, loyalty to the school and head excellent and there were only about 10 to 12 children in each class with a TA shared over two classes per yr group too.

This Prep. is v different - much bigger, much larger class size and this incredibly rapid turnover of staff - well, rapid in my mind. I wonder if it's that they're recruiting less experieneced, younger staff who are at a different life stage and therefore more likely to move on?

However, DS2 has had 7 different teachers for one subject since Sept. because of the newly recruited teacher being regularly off with poor health (now left), various other staff filling in day by day and finally a new substitute appointed recently - but she's only staying till the end of the summer term.

DS2 has had to adapt to different personalities teaching in different ways, with different expectations. Lucky for him it's his best subject but others in the class have suffered more.

Another issue if how the parents get to know about staff leaving. The children are told first, informally and then come home and let you know in passing, with no further info. from the school until just before the staff member goes, when there's a quick note to parents about it. I'd feel more reassured if there were a well-considered letter coming to parents, pre-empting their concerns and assuring that good continuity of learning would continue. The fact that there hasn't even been 'lip-service' paid to this worries me.

This is an academically selective school (yrs 3 to 6) where the larger class size is 'sold' as a good thing, as all the children are supposed to be able to work independently and rapidly and kick off ideas with each other.

In practice, the v v bright children (NOT my DCs!) don't get enough stimulation to move on even further, as the teacher just doesn't have enough time - or perhaps, because of staff turnover, doesn't even know the children so well. The less than brilliant children, some of whom struggle perhaps with one particular area or subject, have little time for one-to-one help and get left behind.

DS1 - who struggles in one particular key subject - told me that the other day he put up his hand at the beginning of a lesson to ask a question and despite raising his hand first of several children, was the last to be attended to. So he 'lost' the whole lesson, unable to get on with his work.

As I'm a single mum, single-handedly funding 2 lots of private school fees and meanwhile running a f/t business alone as well, I need to be able to trust that my investment is a good one and I'm beginning to doubt this.

I think I need to have a word with the Head and see if I can get some reassurance about my concerns. It sounds as if class size is rather higher than average, from the feedback here and also the staff turnover fairly high too, as some have left after only a year.

It is so difficult to know what's what when you have a relatively small school. It is easy to look at individual departures as all being justified, and school employees are entitled to move around just like an employee in any other business.

It is concerning when employees don't stay the whole year or contract period, unless their circumstances are particularly extenuating (eg they have a sudden serious health problem, or a major family crisis that requires them to move away), but you won't always know the ins and outs of such a situation (people are entitled to privacy).

If you are concerned, the best thing to do is approach the head. If you are feeling this way, then other parents are too, and hte head should know about it. You have to approach him in a measured way and on the same side, ie wanting the best for your DCs and the school.

Do you have other nagging concerns about the school?

Ds's first private school had a high turn over when the current head started. He recruited two new teachers from an agency(there's only 5 classes so this was alot), the one teaching ds's class lasted a term, the one teaching kindergarden lasted a few weeks longer, the teacher of year 6 went on sick leave at easter time and never came back after a disagreement with the head. New staff who shared his faith were brought in (one from a state faith school, I don't know about the others), a NQT who was in charge of year 1 was given the job as a floater to teach science. I only left my child there for a year once the current head took over, I didn't like the way he was turning the school into a faith school nor did I think it was a good idea for him to question the children about the parents faiths, alot of parents pulled their children out of the school for the same reason.

I'd begin to ask some questions if I were you.

I think you are right to be concerned, solo2

The DCs (same foundation but different schools) class sizes are never more than 20 and although new teachers etc have started, it's never been mid-year and they haven't had a change of teacher other than as they moved into a new year.

Is this a small private prep? Is it trying to operate by making a profit, rather than as a not-for-profit organisation? I'm always a bit suspicious of small profitmaking private schools - perhaps unfairly but still ...

You should worry if they are hiring alot of NQT's or agency teachers, it means they are paying the NQT's less then longer standing staff, meaning they are trying to maximise profits, agency staff have no rights so they can just get rid of them which is unsettling for children.

There is nothing wrong with hiring NQTs. All teachers need a chance!

NQTs are very good for a school - they come with all the latest ideas, theories, and have more energy than most.

NQTs aren't cheaper for a school than a teacher who has one or two years of experience. They have a reduced timetable, don't do cover, duties or invigilation (standard in independent schools), have more inset days and require mentoring by a senior member of staff.

One really good practice that I have seen in teaching, both independent and maintained, is that everyone agrees that we need to keep the profession moving along. This means giving NQTs a chance wherever possible, and it has nothing to do with how much they get paid.

At my school, I don't think they are overly concerned with the salary scale. Since I joined, there has been no experience pattern to new recruits. We have had NQTs and teachers at the top of the scale and beyond threshhold. The key thing is to get the right teacher for the job and someone who will fit with the ethos of the school.

Shouldn't there be a balance of NQT's and longer standing staff though? The one at ds's old school didn't have a reduced timetable, he wasn't sent on extra courses. From what I gather from him and the parents who's children were in his class he had no mentor at all and was told to get on with it. Poor bloke was stressed out!!

There should be a balance. Nature has a way of sorting it out - someone retires or moves to a promoted position, they get replaced by an NQT.

Most schools that I have seen run a statutory induction programme for NQTs. No NQT should touch a school that doesn't offer this. It is an important part of their qualification. I don't think they can get QTS without it.

I don't think parents and pupils would really know about a NQT induction programme, tbh.

BigBadMummy - no this school isn't in Hampshire and reluctant to say where it is as I do feel a lot of loyalty to the school, which has some excelent individual teachers and a newish head teacher who was one of the best selling points for the school for me.

However, I do wonder if the head is brilliant with parents but maybe less so with the staff??

Quattrocento, I think this isn't a small profit-making school but one that partly relies on parental 'offerings' to fund a bursary system for the less well off (I get a miniscule bursary that's soon to be withdraw, as I'm on the cusp of their cut-off and I don't earn all that much).

Without wanting to identify the school by giving too much away, I would add that the school has recently become co-ed after being all boys for several yrs from the start, has a fairly new (and so I'd believed) excellent head but may be having some teething problems in it's expansion and co-ed development.

Lots of the old staff who'd been there for yrs and yrs left when the old head left (who'd also been there for yrs), new head started and lots of new staff and now lots of the NEW staff seem to be leaving.

Maybe this is what schools do at times of change and I'm open to understanding the issues. I just don't want my DCs to suffer.

I WILL arrange to see the head. It's partly WHAT's happening that concenrs me but also partly the WAY it's being handled that concerns me. I can see better ways to manage this difficult situation, communicating with and reassuring parents all along, than seems to be happening.

But I'll approach the head in a measured way as you helpfully advise, MmeBlueberry.

Are you in the East Midlands by any chance?

No, BelleDeChoc...it's not in the East Midlands.