At what age/level do they do this? - maths

[nwmum]

Hi

At what age are children doing these sorts of calculations?

(12x8) + (4x3) &divid;6=

(11x11)- (9x9) x 5=

Also, is that the same stage where they would do an oral test on them i.e. 50 questions read out by a teacher and answers onto a numbered sheet
thanks

Interested to see the answer to this as my dc not in the uk system. At the moment, in her third year of primary, she is doing very simple multiplication, eg, three pairs of shoes is how many shoes. No division yet, that I have noticed. Not coming home anyway.

DD is in Y4 (so 8-9 years) and they do this sort of thing. Quite often it's as word problems though. Mental maths does those sort of problems but tend to use the simpler times tables from what I can gather so more likley to be: (10x3)+(7x2)/11=?

My DH is a Maths Teacher and I've just asked... he said he would be very shocked if a state school would teach this any earlier than YR 6

Hi

Thanks for replies, I am interested as dd (yr2) has a verbal test on Friday on this. I know she has had extra maths work home but I was surprised that she was able to do such a test.

Goodness me! Those are very advanced calculations for a year 2 child!

This website states all of the objectives a child should achieve by the end of each year - this is quite a nice overview for calculation in numeracy for years 1, 2 and 3.

nationalstrategies.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/strands/34759/34267/110213

All depends on your child's needs though to be honest - if your child is capable of this kind of work then there is no reason why they shouldn't be given these calculations...might be worth asking if your dd is on the gifted and talented register!

Yr 6 at the earliest I would say. Probably most children secondary school.

My year 4 could do this if it was read out to him in stages - he could do all the different calculations but I don't think he could do it written down like this. Shall I try it on him for you?

He did the second one easily without help - found the first one a bit hard because of the dividing but managed it with a little help. Knew all about brackets.

He's 9 and working at about 4b ish

Sorry, meant 4c ish.

It depends entirely on the child, you can't make a blanket judgement. I would certainly expect a year 5 child (with a good grasp of number to be able to do it)and most definitely by year 6. There is no reason why a year 4 child couldn't. I would expect it just to be 2x3x5xor10x table for younger children.
The stumbling block is knowing their tables-it holds them back so much if they don't instantly know the answer to 9x9. If they know their tables it is easy to do as an oral question. If they don't know their tables they can't do it this way because they are onto the next question before they have worked it out.
Therefore:

1. They need to know their tables
2. They have to understand the tables and what 9x9 means and that division is the inverse of multiplication.

If they understand 1 and 2 a quite young child can understand what they have to do.

Absolutely. And I have sadly come to the concludion that the easiest and quickest way to learn tables is to learn them by rote.

And NOT - (grrrrr) by counting in the number. It's useless to be able to say 9,18,27,36,45,54,63,72,82,90 if you don't know instantly that 9 times 9 is 81.

The only way is by rote. I have a job at the moment, helping the weakest year 6's in Maths. Not knowing their tables, instantly, is the biggest thing holding them back and one thing that I can't do for them. I tell them that I learnt them in junior school and once learnt you don't forget them. If they want to know 6x8 they are writing down 8,16,24,etc. I am at least trying to get them to see (if they don't know it)that they could start at 8x5(which they know) and add 8. I am starting on fractions tomorrow and finding an 8th of a number or finding equivalent fractions is going to be hard going, if they have to work out the division on a piece of paper first.

Ds1 is Y4. He is super-fast at all his tables. His weekly maths tests are things like 14x14, 15x13 etc etc, so bigger numbers. He also has to do lots of longer style' calculations like the ones in the OP, but not in a 'test' situation.

"Do you have a name that you've made-up and would love to use (but might not be brave enough to use)? "

What sort of school does he teach in?

Sorry - c and p the wrong thing! What I meant was....

" My DH is a Maths Teacher and I've just asked... he said he would be very shocked if a state school would teach this any earlier than YR 6"

what sort of school does he teach in?

I come across lots of DCs who have amazing maths brains and I have trouble keeping up!
If you want to get them used to calculations-and have fun as a family try Countdown
here
I must admit that I get panicked by the time limit! However the DCs like the fact that they can beat me sometimes!! They find it fun-if you play a lot you find helpful strategies.

I would be amazed if a state school wasn't teaching it before year 6-although they might make the tables easier.

I'd say dd was average at maths and she wouldn't be doing that sort of calculation verbally (she's yr 5).

Written down she might be but I'd suspect they would be the harder end of a test tbh. It's the 3 stage nature of them. They do word problems like that (and they've done long multiplication and long division) but they can break them down. Written out like that I'm not sure if they've done all the rules yet (so knowing that you multiply the 9x9 by 5 before you did the taking away).

DD is Y4, top half of class, but no more (sorry wont know nc level till parents eve next week). She has just done the first problem without any difficulty. She says they have covered brackets, and I know they are working on all the times tables this term and have daily games involving these at school.

Lleytons mummmy - what type of school does your dh teach at?

DD is at state primary.

Totally agree seeker:
...Absolutely. And I have sadly come to the conclusion that the easiest and quickest way to learn tables is to learn them by rote.
And NOT - (grrrrr) by counting in the number. It's useless to be able to say 9,18,27,36,45,54,63,72,82,90 if you don't know instantly that 9 times 9 is 81.....

The latter is learning how to sequence numbers, NOT learning times tables.

I've also found that it is also very confusing to learn with clapping, with songs, or rap, because the children have to think of doing seomthing IN ADDITION to remembering the x table (e.g. clap at the right time, the tune, the rhythm of the rap).

Chanting by rote every single day with lots of competitions and short tests is the only way to go, I reckon! I even think interactive games are confusing when you're first learning your tables. Drawing arrays and sorting things into groups is really useful (then point to each 'group' as you chant the x table).

MOST of my Y2s are pretty good at 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x and 10x now, but it makes a huge difference if they're practising at home. (It's often useful if you have a big brother or sister!)

dd has done sums like this before now - she's 8 but working at Year 6 level. I think they have done verbal tests but most mental maths is still written.

DS is in year 2 - is a whizz at maths and doesn't do this at school. He probably could if I broke it down into stages, but I'd say it's more yr5/6.

Sorry only just found this post. My DH is a state secondary Maths Teacher in a regular comp .. The comp however is in a grammar catchment area. I got my DH to look at it and he looked at something .. don't ask me what and said he would be suprised if a primary school would teach that before Yr 5.. He is however a secondary Teacher not primary so maybe some schools do teach it earlier than he thought..

Also .. when I first post I was in a rush shouldn't have said "shocked " more liked suprised or would find it unlikely.. I think the word shocked was used incorrectly ..