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Education

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what would you choose state or private education for secondary school

51 replies

busymummy3 · 18/02/2010 23:11

ds is a very bright child on g and t register has achieved level5a in literacy and level5b + for maths and science in optional sats when in y5. now in y6 teacher see no reason why should not achieve very highly in actual sats. we have opted for a very successful state secondary school as our first choice but just started to wonder (as you do )whether should have looked into scholarships or bursaries for private school? one parent has done this in class child is same as my ds that is what has set me thinking

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busymummy3 · 19/02/2010 15:19

I think I would like to take MmeBlueberry up on the point 'independent schools are not just a more genteel version of state schools' hopefully not trying to say that just because education is paid for that behaviour is better? also like Lighteningbugs would like to know in what way is the culture different?

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gramercy · 19/02/2010 15:28

MmeBlueberry - lawks! How very patronising, nay, downright rude.

MmeBlueberry · 19/02/2010 16:00

I wasn't trying to be patronising or rude.

But I am just reflecting back the views I see on the posts here - that somehow independent is the same as state. But it's not.

I'm not sure what I said that was rude, tbh. Can you enlighten me so that I don't offend in the future?

Lighteningbugs · 19/02/2010 16:01

Massive generalisation there MmeBlueberry. Plus as gramercy says rather rude !

MmeBlueberry · 19/02/2010 16:04

Good behaviour is not a causal effect of paying for education for most pupils, but there is probably a correlation.

Some pupils will work harder because their parents are paying, but most will not be sensitive to the sacrifice. They will work harder because they have been brought up to value education and hard work.

And before anyone predictably says that state school pupils don't do the same, note that I haven't actually made any comment about state school pupils.

MmeBlueberry · 19/02/2010 16:06

Do your magic on me, lightening bug, then, and enlighten me. I can't see what I have said that it rude. Just sharing my opinion like everyone else here. Am I not entitled?

lemonmuffin · 19/02/2010 16:09

I've just read through your posts mme blueberry, and i can't see a single thing that could possibly be called rude.

Take no notice, on the private vs state threads people always seem to get a bit huffy, one way or another.

Lighteningbugs · 19/02/2010 16:17

"It's not just a case of shuffling from one disconnected lesson to another. Of course, you may not value that, so don't really connect with the notion"

In this particular post I think you imply that all lessons in state secondary schools are disconnected, do you not ? You also imply that people who send kids to state schools do not value a holistic all round whole pupil approach which in fact any parent would value.

In addition even if it were true to imply that people do not send their children to private schools because they do not value a particular kind of education is false anyway. Most people do not do it because they simply cannot afford it.

MmeBlueberry · 19/02/2010 16:22

Well, well, my prediction came true.

Anyways, having taught in several state schools, I would say that the lessons were very disconnected. I have never worked in a department that has had anything to do with colleagues in the wider school. Now my experience might be unfortunate, but it is very real to me. Two of these schools were Ofsted Outstanding, btw, and one of them a grammar school. Go figure.

Not sure how my observations, or the stating of them, is rude. But there you go.

Lighteningbugs · 19/02/2010 16:28

What prediction was that then ?

MmeBlueberry · 19/02/2010 16:30

In my opinion, valuing education means doing your best to send your children to the best school you are able to.

You might be constrained by catchment, transport, religion, and - yes- money.

If you can afford to pay for education, you simply have more choices open to you.

It's great for people to bleat on about grammar schools or outstanding comprehensives but not all of us have those on our radar screens because we are out of catchment or on via public transport routes. If your choice is a sink school or private (because you can afford it), then you choose private. Simple.

I don't see why DH & I should be ashamed of studying hard, strategically planning our careers, and then working hard. This gives us the means to have choices in education that others do not necessarily have (just as I don't have a choice of grammar schools as we also value living close to DH's work). We did not get where we are by accident.

Given that we do have the money, then I think that education is a very ethical route for disposal of it. It is far more ethical, in my view, that big houses, fast cars, fancy holidays and designer clothes. YMMV.

MmeBlueberry · 19/02/2010 16:31

Prediction: 3rd paragraph, 16.04 post.

MmeBlueberry · 19/02/2010 16:37

Thank you, lemon. It certainly had me baffled.

Lighteningbugs · 19/02/2010 16:41

"bleat on" rude again

"don't see why DH & I should be ashamed of studying hard" - so you assume that people with children in state schools did not work hard ? Or are not well educated ?

I have no problem with people privately educating their children. I do have a problem with people implying that that is always a better education.

We will clearly never agree on this matter so it is pointless discussing it any further.

MmeBlueberry · 19/02/2010 16:48

I didn't say anything about the converse, lightening. That is all in your mind. I am just saying what we did and how it has benefited us.

Please stop putting a negative spin on everything I write. That is what is rude, not anything that I am saying.

If I say the sky is blue, that is not the same as saying that the only thing that is blue is the sky. But that is what you are effectively doing to everything I write. It is silly and not productive.

I am quite happy to share the reasons we embrace independent schools, but I am getting the feeling that I am some kind of enemy here. I am only doing what I think is best for my children. Other people have different ideas as to what this means, and I am happy to go along with that.

You are obviously happy with your state schools, so I am happy for you.

gramercy · 19/02/2010 18:11

I'm very happy that you're thrilled with your choice, MmeBlueberry, but you can't deny that you implied quite strongly that those of us who have children in state schools not only do not value a 'holistic' education, but wouldn't know one, let alone appreciate it, if it hit us in our one-dimensional faces.

MmeBlueberry · 19/02/2010 18:20

I implied no such thing, gramercy.

However, it is clear from hundreds of these threads that many mumsnetters have no idea about independent schools.

Independent schools are very different from state schools otherwise people in my income bracket would not make the sacrifice. Think about it.

alann · 19/02/2010 19:03

Sounds like you have very good comps in your area so you're probably making the right choice. I'm going private as I've heard at our local comp half the period can be gone before the teacher manages to get control of the class! Lot of wasted teaching time.
Belledechocolate..... may be different in my area but if its any help to you I''ve just recently looked in to the average annual increase in school fees and seems to be approx 3.5 - 4%.

alann · 19/02/2010 19:13

oops just realised I'd missed out a whole page of post prior to my response, if it seems a little inappropriate this is why. silly me

BelleDeChocolateFluffyBunny · 19/02/2010 20:55

Sorry but don't people pretend to be of a certain faith in order to send their child to a faith school which is thought of as better? Don't people move areas and get a bigger mortgage just so they can send their child to a particular school? How many parents hire tutors so their child passes the 11+ for a much coveted place in a state Grammar school? Alot of parents play the system in order to benefit their child, sending them to a private school opts out of all of this shite and does exactly what it says on the tin, there's no pretending to be catholic, no greedy house sellers making a packet because they were lucky enough to own a house in a particular catchment area etc. 'Let he who is free of sin cast the first stone' and all that.

MmeBlueberry · 19/02/2010 21:35

Exactly, Belle.

We all do what we can for our children. What I do is fairly transparent, and it's not luck that I am in this position.

MmeBlueberry · 19/02/2010 21:35

Exactly, Belle.

We all do what we can for our children. What I do is fairly transparent, and it's not luck that I am in this position.

BelleDeChocolateFluffyBunny · 19/02/2010 21:41
Wink
abride · 19/02/2010 22:15

OK: this is the big difference I see between our private schools (for a son and daughter) and our local comprehensive:

The private schools we chose are unashamedly academic. They choose IGSEs for maths, French, English and some sciences. They discourage 'soft' GCSE choices. You can, of course, study music and art and drama and lots of them do, everyone needs to express these sides of their personality. But you are under no illusions that if you want to get on an academic university course you need to study the old-fashioned 'difficult' subjects and have a preponderance of them.

When I tried to explain this to our primary school head, whom I respect deeply and like very much, he looked at me as though I was mad and told me I was 'old-fashioned'.

Maybe. But my DH and I have worked in many fields: business, the City, the law, accountancy and management consultancy. I have written recruitment brochures for many firms in these sectors. I know what employers are looking for and it's rigorous academic qualifications: exams they understand, such as Maths, French, Physics, History. My children may not want to do any of the above careers (and my sympathies are with them if they don't) but I want them to have the choice.

At the local comprehensive a lot of the very bright children are guided towards GCSEs that will not help them academically. You can study one language only at GCSE: French. There is no Latin, no Spanish, no German. Most of the children have to give up history because it doesn't fit in with most of the timetables. There is a lot of pushing them to do resistant materials, and a kind of business studies with economics GCSE, plus PE plus art. That's three or four soft GCSEs--even for very academic children. Even when the parents realise that this is not right they can't always do anything about it. Some of my friends don't realise that having four of these GCSEs on a bright child's CV is doing them no favours and you can be sure that nobody at that school is going to enlighten them.

And of course this limits their A level choices. And this limits the chances of getting into good universities.

This is why we pay: to get honest advice about the subjects the children will need to study to have the maximum choice.

Another thing I've noticed: ours do no more homework than their peers at the comprehensive. There are hardly any project-type 'design a poster or a box' pieces set by the schools. They'll learn a list of French verbs or write an essay or do some maths. Then homework's over: often in 40 minutes, even the year 8 child. The year 6 child has very little homework: perhaps 25 minutes three times a week. In the state primary her arty-crafty homework took much longer than that because we were having to source bits of cardboard and ribbon, etc.

This is why we pay. We know exactly what needs to be done to get them where they need to be and we are under no illusion that it will necessarily be easy for them, even though they are both bright and motivated. Sometimes they will complain that the work is hard. Good, I think. As long as it's hard but not impossible and as long as the teachers are supportive, that's as it should be.

Is it unfair that we can pay and others can't? It's damn unfair. Not every child would enjoy these kind of schools: I'd guess that perhaps only a third would. But it's a wicked waste that all of that third can't all have it.

busymummy3 · 20/02/2010 00:13

why would you pretend you are a certain faith to get your child into a school perceived to be better.? if you successfully got your child in would it not then bother your that he or she will be taught the faith of that school ? that you may not follow or practice?

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