Who saw the Dispatches programme on awful maths teaching in primary schools?

[WilfSell]

I was shocked by how few teachers, supposed to be teaching maths, could do the tests. link here

Fewer than half I think, could pass half of the questions. Only one got them all right.

It seems a bit, um, fundamental really.

This isn't a teacher bashing thread. I love teachers. So what can be done? Specialist teachers across age groups? Abandon SATS in favour of proper skills development?

I find it sad that people are thinking of this in 'minimum' terms. Maths is a subject in which some children do stratospherically well eg there are stories of Y6s doing GCSE or we have an example on here of someone whose child was invited to study at Cambridge when they were still in Y9 (or was it Y10? can't remember the detail but you get the idea).

We shouldn't have Primary teachers who are stuggling with KS2 material - we should have teachers who are confident to KS3 at least. Many budding mathematicians are put off the subject by defensive teachers who feel threatened by the fact that the child is better than them at the subject.

I think wastwinsetandpearls is right.
Society as a whole and children in the classroom need to respect and look up to teachers. Teachers need to be put on a pedestal, as they are in some other countries. I agree with wastwinsetandpearls that the status of teachers will be improved if it becomes widely recognised that the bar is set high in order to become a teacher. Also teachers' pay needs to be improved as an indication of the value that society places on the role of teaching. Teaching should not be viewed by children as being a second best option.

I don't think that a knowledge of advanced maths is necessary to teach primary school maths, but an understanding of what it means is crucial.

The reason why the teachers had no clue of what to do with the division of fractions question is that they didn't understand what the question was asking. Maths is beautiful and elegant and it is the truly universal language. There needs to be a new way of teaching it in the beginning stages so that we don't lose the imagination of the youngest learners. I think that a more active approach (like the one brought by the consultant teacher who was brought into the school in the programme) would aid greatly. However, bringing this method in at Grade 6 is too late. How about starting it in Reception?

Well this discussion has spurred me on. In a few years time when I am cynical and jaded with my current career path (heading that way after 16 years) I plan to retrain as a teacher. I do a lot of school based work at the moment mostly around environment and sustainabilty, and I believe the range of experience I've gained in my career and in life would add to my strengths as a teacher.

However, my maths ability is utterly crap - I did the test and I'm not going to fess up to my failings here, it was worse than I expected. As a child of the 70s I don't recall ever being taught maths at primary school other than times tables. Although, I can put together a mean nature table and show all the habitat links no probs! How I got a C at O'level I will never know.

My mental arthmatic is pretty good, I have to do adding up a lot with my job and I worked in a bookies as a student, that fine tunes your arthmatic pretty quick, but the other stuff has completely left my brain.

So as not to turn the brains of the children I may teach into mathmatical mush, I have just signed up to over 100hours of maths tuition, to be done over the next 18 months before embarking on my career change!

I think it is impossible to teach well what you don't understand.

megapixel - I find maths hard - I don't get most of the "theory" - so have never been able to score 100% marks.

Now - if you give me a Grade 8 Music Theory test I'll probably (with a bit of revision as I am a little rusty on the higher grade stuff - sale through that no problem

out of interest, what do you lot think of kumon or other private tutoring (in groups) like explore learning?

oh there are two threads on this, how confusing

I personally agree that Kumon is death by worksheets, but it does work. Maths is very successfully taught this way in the orient, but this style of learning is accepted as normal there. I do agree with the step-by-step repetitive approach for the basics of Numeracy, however one needs to also teach the theory behind the maths to ensure comprehension for the subsequent stages of maths.

I'm a KS2 teacher. I took the test and got them all right, though a couple made me think more than normal! I got a C at GCSE in 1988 - I dare say I'd have done better if my maths teacher had inspired me to work harder, but he bored me shitless day in day out and I did the bare minimum!

I have a music degree, and my specialisms are music and English. However, I have co-ordinated maths in the past, and felt confident in that role too. I dare say I would struggle with large chunks of the maths curriculum beyond KS3 (lack of practice would make this the same for most people), but if I had an especially talented pupil (beyond the realms of the normal gited and talented in school) I would make sure I researched and found either the material to teach to that level, or an 'expert' to help me.

Having maths A-level or a maths degree won't make someone a better primary teacher, and it won't make them able to teach all the other requirements of the National Curriculum either. However, I do think a certain level of intelligence is required. I had a friend at 6th form who got on to a B.Ed course with 2 A-levels, grades D and E (that was in 1990). On the other hand, I know exceptionally intelligent people who really struggle to relate to others, let alone to children - they would make terrible teachers despite having superb subject knowledge.

The trouble with TV like this is that the public assume that all teachers are the same. I was horrified at their 11 weeks of SATs preparation - all they need is a few practice papers so they know how to answer exam questions. 11 weeks isn't going to give them the skills they haven't been taught for the previous 6 years!

A slight hijack, but hey people, count yourselves lucky if you're in England or Wales - honestly. I am currently trying to find my way around the impenetrable mire that is Scotland's (quote) "Curriculum for Excellence" so that I can get some idea what my DS might possibly learn in his pre-school year. Such a pile of utter shite I have never set eyes on before. I despair, I really do.

[BTW, any Scottish nursery/primary school teachers out there - feel free to come and tell me I'm wrong and where I can find some information on what he might actually be taught throughout his long time at school!]

That was obviously a bit way off topic. I think I'll be starting a new thread tomorrow.

Oh dear god...

I agree with Swill. Just because somebody has a fantastic degree in maths or indeed any subject, does not make them a good teacher. DC1 had an A Level Maths teacher who was fantastically well qualified, was actually Dr. and yet couldn't teach the subject at all because he could not relate to the students. Most of the kids in the class ended up having private tuition and sadly, those who didn't, all failed the exam. OTOH, some teachers who have not specialised in Maths, for example, may be better teachers because they are more likely to look at the subject from different POV in order to develop their own understanding.

But don't you want both sayithow. We should not accept mediocrity for our children.

I do agree that you need the raw personality and teaching skill and to some extent you cannot learn that.

But you also need the subject knowledge. I have a degree in theology , I teach RE and Philosophy. I am unhappy in the fact that I do not also have a philosophy degree, as a professional I am now correcting that and working for my second degree. I suspect when I have finished that degree I will need to, again, update my subject knowledge.

I don't think you need a degree in maths to teach primary but you need to be at least comfortable enough with numbers to get an A at GCSE level. I would suggest that people who get a C at GCSE are still struggling with basic Maths concepts and are not fluent enough to teach.

I agree Onemorecup. It would however be great to have someone with a maths degree in every primary school who oversees the teaching of maths.

I have a friend who transferred from the secondary to primary sector and she was snapped up because of her science degree ( I can't remember which discipline) She oversees the teaching of science.

Did anyone hear that Lenny Henry prog on R4 a few weeks back? It was excellent - explaining that maths is often poorly communicated (a bit like the teaching of foreign languages). I got 7 out of 14 on the test and had to have two stabs at O'level, with private tuition and just scraped it. Somewhere in the loft I still have the school reports that pretty much say "Mrs S is very good at English, no good at maths - but hey she is a girl, what do you expect?" Maths teaching was crap at my school and anyone not in the top group was basically ignored (hence private tuition - Papa was a teacher (not of maths) so one of his friends did a cheap deal). I dunno - wouldn't maths graduates be bored by teaching in a primary? I knew a maths grad who went into the profession - he was hopeless and left after about 3 years.

I would support maths training as a speciality aspect of primary school PGCE. Kids need to be inspired and to see what relevance it has. If they all get that maths can be fun and useful then hopefully we will get a generation who understand rip-off APR rates and also some mathematical geniuses. I doubt that I would ever have been a maths boff but I am good with spreadsheets and stuff like that. I'd love to do some sort of maths refresher because it bugs me not really understanding volumes and things like that.

I teach in a middle school and currently teach years 5, 6 and 7 maths - including top or bottom sets in most year groups. The Year 7 low sets need a much more primary based curriculum because they haven't managed to make connections between basic skills and actually applying their knowledge - and their understanding is seriously limited a lot of the time!

I spend a lot of my time talking about pizzas and sweets when teaching fractions - I took the test and got them all correct but simple numbers don't make much sense to many of the (predominantly) boys in my lower sets so I have to use much more practical examples.

I wonder if this approach disappears in secondary school - thus bringing about lots of adults who are still not good at maths.

I'm a primary school teacher, usually Y5/6 and don't have an A-level in maths but then I didn't really 'get' the point of maths until I studied statistics which as part of my degree and a huge part of my life when I worked in engineering research.

Not being naturally gifted in maths helps make me a good maths teacher as I don't expect children to wake up knowing what I'm talking about/just getting it immediately and will try all sorts to help them understand a concept. I get excellent results from my classes and, most recently, exceeded my class targets by 27%.

These days my maths is much better than a lots of my friends who have A-level maths but don't use it regularly.

DD's class teacher is rotten at maths, when they do mental arithmetic she says DD gets the answer before she does...however, DD has her lessons with the maths specialist teacher who is really really good and DD loves those extra lessons.

If DD only had her class teacher then it would be dire, but not being brilliant at maths isn't a real issue as in all other ways DD's teacher is fine, but the school have made sure they do have a good teacher for the children who have an aptitude and that's a good way to cover it.

OneMoreCup: 'I would suggest that people who get a C at GCSE are still struggling with basic Maths concepts and are not fluent enough to teach.'

I am extremely comfortable with basic maths concepts, and beyond. Luckily, I've never had a child 'beat' me in any lesson, not even giften and talented kids.

Perhaps a C at GCSEs nowadays is worth little, but as I was the first year of GCSE guinea-pigs I like to think the 'dumbing down' wasn't quite as serious 21 years ago! Yes, I can even manage long division LOL! Like SE13Mummy, my maths skills are also better than many non-teaching friends who now never use their 'higher level' maths knowledge.

I agree with SE13Mummy - an old colleague of mine was, by her own admission, awful at maths. However, she got far better results from the children than the rest of us because she knew so many ways around a problem. Really good mathematicians can make worse teachers because they just don't get why the children don't understand the basics despite going over and over the same things time and time again. I'm a bit like this with kids who never get the hang of reading music after playing instruments for years - I just don't get what the problem is because it's always come so naturally to me.

Another GCSE guinea pig here!

BUMP!
As Part 2 is on tonight. Hope that'll bring some more interesting posts

I'm 23 and doing a maths degree (with OU), and I'm hoping to be a primary school teacher (yr5/6). My friends are surprised I'm choosing primary, and while I agree we need many more good maths teachers in secondary (and the higher pay would be nice) I passionately believe that we need good maths teaching long before yr7 as by then, many kids are irretrievably settled into "maths is boring, pointless and too hard". I partly want to do primary teaching as I would enjoy teaching all the other subjects too, but I do love the sound of a 'maths specialist' role in a junior school. Sign me up!!!

I can understand being an 'expert' at something doesn't make you a good teacher - I taught piano for 5 years, which I find easy, but I really had to learn how to teach it effectively to the kids who weren't naturally musical.

(Incidentally I also taught at Kumon - a PP mentioned it - and it is indeed Death By Worksheet. I say 'taught', even the woman who ran it did bog all other than marking. When I helped a girl really struggling with long division, I was breaking the rules . I didn't care because at least she then understood the concept and was much happier!)

I felt quite sorry for the kids on the show when it was time for SATs revision. Their education was being put in second place behind the school's results. And the school is meant to be there for those kids' education. How does that work?

As well as the test on the website, did anyone else read this? www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/kids-dont-count-richard-dunne-feature

3m

"My friends are surprised I'm choosing primary, and while I agree we need many more good maths teachers in secondary (and the higher pay would be nice)"

Secondary teachers don't get paid more than primary school teachers.