Ability - are our heads filled with limiting thoughts?

[Cortina]

I am struck by how many seem to think we can't do much about our ability, it's a pretty static thing. IQ can't be grown so why try? You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Some think that innate talent is nothing and 99% is hard work (not on MN I would argue) .

The champion chess playing Polgar family believe this. They have produced 3 of the most successful female chess players ever. The youngest, Judit, is considered the best player of all time. She wasn't the talented one, her sister said 'Judit was a slow starter, but very hard working'.

Was this ability solely passed down through the genes?

Say a child passes into grammar school and yours doesn't. Someone gets the job and you don't. One child gets an A and the other a D in GCSE, one is cleverer, surely? They've both had the same opportunities and they're not lazy.

Were these people smarter and more talented/gifted?

Could it not be that they used better strategies, taught themselves more, practiced harder and worked through any obstacles? Did they have a goal and take real steps to make it happen and not leave it up to 'innate' ability?

It's possible for someone with an average IQ to get a first at university.

Is Malcolm Gladwell right?:

Apparently, in the sports world for example, we refuse to recognise the relationship between practise and improvement. We just talk about innate physical talent.

'People prize natural endowment over earned ability'

Can anyone really do anything? I think we can do a lot more than we might think, our 'ability' can improve immeasurably. We can grow and develop and we learn all the time.

I agree that hard work and determination can get you a long way but how do you instil said characteristics? DD is bright but not really that interested in academics; I have given loads of opportunities and been encouraging regarding schoolwork but if she is not interested then what can you do?
There are other things that do light a spark with her so I try to show an interest there but it's difficult when they leave me cold (airhead stuff like the latest plot on Hollyoaks)

There are clearly a range of factors involved.

To be really exceptional at something, you need to have some innate ability, a commitment to work hard at it, the opportunity to pursue that goal and some luck. In order to work really hard at something, you probably need to decide that you are going to not work hard at something else, and as a consequence become quite bad at that. In addition to this, people's potential reveals it itself at different ages as a quite a separate factor to the work they are putting in.

So all of this stuff that seems to go on now where people think because their 7 year old got a level 3, they can be predicted a 5 at 11 and an A* at 15/16 is madness and creates setting in primary school that is frequently criticised by the Sutton Trust.

But getting a first in an undergraduate degree is not an indication that someone is exceptional, and so could be achieved by someone with an average IQ (although IQ is not a measure of innate intelligence anyway).

Someone who is clever can do well.

Someone who is hard-working can do well.

Someone who is clever and hard-working is unbeatable.

Fact of life. Brains + effort.

You can no doubt make a satin purse out of a sow's ear, but you're never going to get a silk one unless there are some decent genes bobbing around inside somewhere.

I agree in part, Milly. I did exactly what you said and in my Maths lessons I had English Literature quietly on the go .

I believed I was 'bad' at Maths though and it's never that clear cut. Many have the same fear of Maths, I made some comments about that on the other thread.

Agree with your comments on primary school. Teachers who are like my fictional Mrs Lock (on the other thread) I believe could be the answer.

As regards the degree I agree and I agree with the IQ observation, when I say average IQ I mean the average student. Society does tend to see those with a first as being generally bright though which would be a feather in the cap of my fictional Edward and all those who had written him off as stupid.

Perhaps I am now a satin purse?? I hope one up from a nylon or raylon one! Love the description!

iamdisappointedinyou. You can do your best to create a nuturing, non judgemental environment. Helps if you begin to do this when children are very young.

Be careful about praise and positive labels as well as negative ones. There was a study where praising children's ability lowered IQ scores. It has to be about praising effort but doing it in an open, genuine sort of way. Praise learning and improvement, get them to think about what they've done and ask why they did it in a certain way.

I am no expert and still learning. I try to be honest with mine and I showed a DC my (terrible) early writing and all the red pen all over the page! They couldn't believe it was my work and I said 'it's ok, I kept trying and I got better' it was a bit of a graft but a necessary evil so I could keep my diary which I loved.

"Society does tend to see those with a first as being generally bright though"

Do they? I thought it merited a sniffy 'worked too hard'

I did start very young, Cortina. I have to accept that she is the way she is.
Her brother is very different.

gramercy I tend to agree but she comments on other thread about prodigies.

Could it be that Darwin's innate ability was the same as mine (!) Could it be true??

What sets us apart was he had more of an extreme love of learning and challenge? He, unlike me who was watching TV, collected specimens nonstop from the time he could toddle? Did this interest 'blossom' into more ability than I had? Did the neurons in his brain go through a huge period of growth while mine stagnated through telly watching?

Could I have been as musical as Mozart? But he, unlike me, was prepared to work until his hands were deformed?

iamdisappointedinyou could it be she doesn't believe she has the ability?

How would she react in this scenario for example. She's learning a new language. A couple of sessions in she's asked to go to the front of the class and the teacher cross questions her (yikes)!

Would she feel that her ability was on the line?

Would she feel judged and evaluated by the teacher?

Would she feel the tension and her ego bristle?

I would naturally do all of those things! Plus my mind would go blank and I would assume all thought I was dim.

DH would think, don't be ridiculous! You're a novice, it's a new language for goodness sake! You're here to learn. The teacher is a resource for learning. It's ok to make a mistake, you are going to learn and besides this is fun!!!

I am trying to teach my DCs to think like DH! Wish me luck! I think to make sure they feel like DH in this situation all the time at school and in life is the goal.

I've noticed that people respond differently to you depending on how confidently you come across in scenarios like this.

In the past I'd make excuses and probably not go back. Now I'd face the class and say all the things DH felt, hopefully confidently and smile at the teacher.

If it was all nurture, how come children of the same family can turn out so different?

Noone in my family has ever shown any aptitude for technology except the only one of my brothers who is adopted; he has an amazing aptitude and interest in the subject which he certainly hasn't acquired from growing up in our cack-handed family; he is almost entirely self-taught.

I don't believe it's all nurture but I do believe ability is a lot less 'fixed' than many have thought until recently.

She doesn't have belief in herself, despite my best efforts. She can be told by me and the teacher that she is capable of X grade but she won't believe it and will underperform.
However, she can stand on stage in front of hundreds of people which I could never do at that age. I wouldn't like to now, come to that.

Society does tend to see those with a first as being generally bright though"

Do they? I thought it merited a sniffy 'worked too hard'

We might think they're a bit dull for about 5 seconds, but secretly many are jealous!

I know one amazing girl, she's a brilliant Mum, has a great job, has a iron will, a perfect body (that she works hard for) and I deeply admire & respect her getting a first. I am jealous as hell

She doesn't have belief in herself, despite my best efforts. She can be told by me and the teacher that she is capable of X grade but she won't believe it and will underperform.
However, she can stand on stage in front of hundreds of people which I could never do at that age. I wouldn't like to now, come to that.

Sounds to me like she has achieved then, but maybe not in the way you wanted or in a way fitted with your aspirations?

Don't mean to judge or sound harsh (you sound v nice)! Just throwing the idea out there

I sound like I was a bit like her. I didn't believe, if someone had told me some of the things on the other thread it might have helped. I saw my ability as fixed, others were cleverer. Perhaps I was just too immature at 18 too? I didn't get it.

Yeah, I think you are right. She is on a gap year while retaking some exams. She does seem to have matured a little so there is hope yet. Sometimes you can tell them things until you are blue in the face but it doesn't sink in - you have to wait for them to learn from their own mistakes.

Henry Ford said "if you tell yourself you can do it, you will be right. If you tell yourself you can't do it, you will be right."