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Original poster

12 years of New Labour and Social Mobility

97 replies

Swedington · 14/12/2009 12:41

is at its lowest levels since the 1950s.

I'm state educated and thanks to my schooling, all the professions were open to me. Doesn't anyone else find it disturbing that if I was to apply to medical school today, my chances of getting a place are lower than had I applied under Thatcher's government? This would be true for all of the years under Thatcher.

What on earth is going on?

OP posts:
Original poster
Swedington · 14/12/2009 18:29

And of course they don't discuss the fact that most private schools will offer STEP and AEAs in preparation for university studies and to prove their capabilities beyond A level. ANd that many of the top universities have their own subject related test requirements to determine the really able from the merely able, like BMAT, LNAT HAT etc.

OP posts:
Original poster
Swedington · 14/12/2009 18:31

Gawd. I am really going on. I should shut up and go and feed my family.

OP posts:
selectivememory · 14/12/2009 18:33

Yes, I know all about grammar schools, as I said earlier the Sutton Trust is involved in my DCs grammar school (NOT in Bucks) in a 'widening participation'scheme.

There is a big problem with grammar schools too, with only parents 'in the know' understanding what is required of the admission criteria, tutoring and so on.

Don't think I believe grammar schools are the bastion of social equality. They certainly aren't. I have seen over the years how our local superselective grammar school's intake has changed massively from the 'ordinary' but clever child gaining a place, to a cheap alternative for a private education at secondary level.

I have helped with the archives and I know for an absolute fact that the intake is completely different now to what it was even 15 years ago. The grammar schools have been hijacked by the middle classes big time. Again, why not?? But it is certainly at the expense of the genuinely clever child from a disadvantaged background.

I also know about the huge grade inflation that has taken place over the last few years so that the three As at A level that was once the preserve of the genuinely very clever is now almost commonplace.

selectivememory · 14/12/2009 18:35

Swedington, I nearly posted your exact 'gawd I am going on' post

lazymumofteenagesons · 14/12/2009 18:37

Also,most courses at top rated universities ask for AAA-BBB, so how can they get 2 grades higher? I think i'm being a bit thick about this one (thats cos I went to Poly!)

sarah293 · 14/12/2009 18:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

MillyR · 14/12/2009 18:43

LEAs should reserve a minimum number of grammar school places for working class children, chosen by selection.

AMerryScot · 14/12/2009 18:47

Why does a grammar school require a Wideningh Participation Scheme? Do they have little tradition of sending pupils to university?

Original poster
Swedington · 14/12/2009 18:48

MillyR - Would they have to outskint/outclass each other in front of a panel of working class experts?

OP posts:
AMerryScot · 14/12/2009 18:49

Why is that, Milly? I thought the whole point of Grammar Schools was to select on aptitude.

Original poster
Swedington · 14/12/2009 18:49

Selectivememory

OP posts:
AngryFromManchester · 14/12/2009 18:54

Lots of working class children in Kent go to grammar schoool but they have to compete with children whose parents have paid for expoensive coaching for them to get them through the 11+

AngryFromManchester · 14/12/2009 18:57

I totally understand where selectivememory is coming from too. I live in kent and the competiveness surrounding the Kent test is un-bloody-believable tbh. Parents coach for yr 2 sats here so they are streamed for junior to get them the best chance of passing. It ios all ridiculous and it does mean that often a less able child will pass because they have been so intensively coached rather than on natural ability which was suppossed to bve the whole point

Kathyis12feethighandbites · 14/12/2009 18:58

I'd like to think there is a way of improving the 11+ tests so it's a bit less coachable. Seems pretty outrageous that it can include things that aren't covered by state schools by the time the exam is taken (I've been told on here this is the case in maths.)

MillyR · 14/12/2009 18:58

I think that for a number different reasons, varying by different grammar systems in different areas, bright working class children are not getting into grammar schools.

Children would still be selected on aptitude, but they would have to include a minimum number of the brightest working class children.

Where I live, this would encourage parents to enter their children for the exam. A lot of time is spent at my son's grammar school on encouraging all different kinds of children to apply. The headmaster always does a speech at the open day about how he grew up in a house with no books and so on. I presume this is because many families simply do not apply because they think grammar schools are not for them.

Universities select on aptitude, but they make allowances for students from certain schools and backgrounds. Grammar schools should do the same.

MillyR · 14/12/2009 19:02

The grammar school exmas have never been a test of innate ability. This is clearly stated on the website of the company that writes the entrance exams; they state that there is no such thing as a test of innate ability.

There is no way of making a test that cannot be coached for; the eleven plus is less easy to coach children for than other exams- the SATs for example.

ElenorRigby · 14/12/2009 19:11

AngryFromManc in Kent, count yourself lucky you are still in Kent!

LaTurkey · 14/12/2009 19:11

A lot of the jobs that you used to be able to work yourself up in now present bars in the form of qualifications etc.. So the backroom boy can no longer become a journalist, like John Humphries or someone of a similar standing I heard on the radio once.

Many of my Dad's friends did very wellthis way, but they wouldn't be able to today.

selectivememory · 14/12/2009 19:15

AMerryScot The 'widening participation scheme' is for getting the children into the grammar school, and thus all the advantages, in the first place.

They get plenty into university. 100% to 'top' universities. About 35% into Oxbridge.

But they need to address the problem of getting children who may be clever but whose parents have no idea about how to go about the admissions process which can seem v complicated and daunting to them. Also the local state primaries tend not to agree with selective education and so give no help or information and push the local comprehensives in the first instance, i.e. the grammar school is not 'for the likes of you' which is nonsense. The Sutton Trust is trying to stop that sort of attitude.

jackstarbright · 14/12/2009 20:08

Much as I admire The Sutton Trust and partner grammar schools for running the 'widening participation scheme': wasn't the closing (most) grammar schools 30 odd years ago, and the move to comprehensive schools, done to increase social mobility? Somewhat ironic don't you think?

AngryFromManchester · 14/12/2009 20:20

what do you man ElenorRigby? I am rather perplexed by that especially as I think we are friends in real life.........

AngryFromManchester · 14/12/2009 20:21

what bdo `you mean I meant

trickerg · 14/12/2009 20:29

Why is maths a more worthwhile A level than media studies? Surely there are more jobs related to media studies than maths? Isn't maths an easy-option A level for those who find it easy? Why do we continue to incorrectly perceive some A levels as easier than others because they are non-traditional / academic? My son's 'easy' art and graphics A levels are taking up hours and hours of work each week.

AngryFromManchester · 14/12/2009 20:30

Oh I cannot stand the snobbery surrounding subject choices either. I am doing an apparent 'mickey mouse degree' the fact that it takes actual skill and talent does not even figure on some peoples radar

MillyR · 14/12/2009 20:41

The employment opportunities are better for maths graduates than for media studies graduates.

I don't think people do consider Art to be an easy subject.