Tutoring for 11+ - this Guardian article must surely be exaggerated?

[KittyCorncrake]

here

ampere, it was me (not abra1d) who said my 'local schools 'aren't that great' ... in the context of none of them being grammars. The proportion who get into the out-of-catchment grammars is insignificantly small. So that's not the culprit.

Is it really true that state primaries aren't allowed to teach 11+? - I'd assumed they would if they were in areas with a grammar at least. Back in my day (tail end of nationwide grammar availability for the top 25% or so) we were all taught VR etc in top juniors - external tutoring unheard of.

It's not allowed at all by our LEA, where the test is supposed to be 'tutor proof'. I think it would be downright unkind to put a child in for it without any sort of familiarization with VR, NVR though, and people either go the whole hog with tutors for a year or more (though I've never heard of anything quite as intense as described in the article, or as expensive), or do as I did and buy some books at Smiths. The questions in the test when DD did it didn't look anything like the books, apparently, but at least she knew what VR and NVR were. And according to my DD, many of the maths questions were well beyond anything she'd done at school, and it certainly hadn't occurred to me that she needed familiarization with maths.

But its not just the grammars that are selective. Our local state secondary in South London takes 33% from each of the three bands in the exam. In the next Borough there are people swapping houses to get closer to the secondary school because although they think their child will probably pass the exam, they think being in closer proximity might make a difference in the play-off stage (where they do indeed award the last few places to whoever achieved the highest mark but lives closest to the school). These are not grammar schools. But they are selective. I think it is misguided to make these generic statements about getting rid of grammars when the same sort of processes exist for other state secondary schools in lots of places.

Worse in Korea apparently

See second para in Leo Lewis's column Crammed Full

In most of the UK there are no grammar school. Just comprehensive schools.

It makes for a much more relaxing life because your children don't have to do an 11+

So, if you are fed up with it all, move to an area without grammars.

It just seems unfair that some children are subject to it and others can just enjoy their childhood and actually develop their intelligence through playing.

(As you can see I'm not a fan of tutoring or grammar schools; I went to a good comprehensive and on to Cambridge University)

'do you not think that the secondaries would improve if the grammars weren't there? '

No.

people who think grammar schools will be like independent schools are seriously misguided. For a start the class sizes are at least 30 if not more depending on the nos of sucessful appeals. They don't have any more resources than any other state school and they will not beable to give more teaching/help to children who are unable to keep up. The pace of teaching is furious (usually teacher will do a couple of easy example questions with the class and then expect the children to beable to tackle the harder questions themselves) and the standards of work expected very high. In my time (grammar turned comp in 2nd year) they posted the position of everyone in the class in every subject at end of year exams for all to see.

Just to add the one I know in Kent seemed to turn out pupils with very average A'level results who could only get into a limited range of universities. Not what I would have expected!

mumzy it depends on the school surely. The ones around here are certainly more like independents in terms of facilities - huge grounds loads of sports facilities swimming pools etc. Much more music orchestras and things as well - they have places for music aptitude/sports etc as well as the academic side.

What the teaching /class sizes are like I don't know - but I would imagine it would vary.

I have experience in independent sctor myself and can confirm that in my school your bit about "The pace of teaching is furious (usually teacher will do a couple of easy example questions with the class and then expect the children to beable to tackle the harder questions themselves) and the standards of work expected very high." would apply.

I don't think you can really generalise like that. There is a reason, certainly around here, that parents are keen for their children to go, aside from the academic side. Some of them are simply very nice, spacious, good schools.

Grammars do, on average, receive more funding than comprehensives and secondary moderns (I can't quote you a reference, but I did find some statistics on this a while back). I think it's to do with specialisms.

Well I'm slap bang in the middle of grammar school land in Buckinghamshire so and the two catchment grammars will suit dd down to a tee. One is a single sex language specialist college, the other a co-ed humanities specialist. Both feature very high in league tables.

She's yr5 and we've started looking at VR papers with her just so she understands the sorts of questions she'll need to do. Don't plan to pay a fortune for a tutor.

People round here do go a bit daft about it though. Dd's school runs a talk about the procedure for applying and the exam itself which they're opening to yr3 parents for the first time. Some yr3 parents have already put their dcs down for tutoring at the 'best' tutor. Lunacy IMHO.

"Just to add the one I know in Kent seemed to turn out pupils with very average A'level results who could only get into a limited range of universities. Not what I would have expected!"

That's not my experience at all - which bit of kent are you talking about?

Every grammar school seems to have a waiting list for places and certainly in year 7 all 30 places in each class will be filled so if a few children get in on appeals then some classes will be 30+. So there is 1 teacher for 30/+ children and you either sink or swim. My point is that getting your children into grammar school by whatever means is not the end of the matter they also have to beable to cope with the pace of teaching, competition from the other children and the schools expectations. Grammar schools are state schools and they don't do extra coaching so you can catch up more likely if you aren't able to cope you may be politely asked to leave. Whereas in independant schools you are paying for smaller class sizes, extra teachers attention and extra help in your dc weaker areas.

Kitty- the Korean children in our area are super-tutored within an inch of their lives, and they are the ones going to the selective grammars.

Mumzy - that's not been our experience at all. Dd is at a grammar school and she has had lots of help, and so have many of her friends. It's not sink or swim at all - it's a very supportive, if very hard working, environment.

mumzy "if you can't cope you may be politely asked to leave" and not getting extra help if you are struggling is just as likely at the very academic end of the independent sector - they have their eyes on their 100% record and will not let that slip. It is very much sink or swim in some independent schools.

Conversely the grammar near us which I would love DD to go to but think it's pretty unlikely takes a good mix of students, encourages them personally as well as academically and turns out very well rounded happy people.

I really don't think you can generalise like that. There are good schools and bad schools, academic schools, sporty schools, schools with good pastoral care and not good, and so on and so on in all sectors.

I use to do private tuition for A'levels in Chemistry and GSCE O level in Chemistry, Physics and Maths.

All my students were either from grammar school or private school.

Parents are paranoid about their children succeeding and seem to have no faith in their off-spring's natural ability. There are a lot of children at grammar school that should not be there quite frankly.

Actually I have found with my three DCs at/were at a grammar school that once the stress of actually getting in is over, it has been fine.

They do work at a fast pace but I think it would have been much more stressful, for one of my DCs in particular, to have been always having to work because is lazy little gitto keep in the top sets at a comprehensive than actually doing barely the minimum at a GS, and still coming out with decent results.

Once they are in, the pressure is off to a certain degree. OK, if you want them to be top of the pile there, then it is going to be stressful but if you are just grateful they are there and are benefitting from a reasonably good education, then you can relax knowing they are going to pass their GCSEs, in a fairly well disciplined and ordered environment. If that's not for you, fine.

It depends how driven and ambitious the child or, in more cases, the parents are which leads to the stress. If they are very ambitious then that is the right environment for them, they will be encouraged and they will do well. However, my DCs were/are just happy to be at a school with virtually no bullying and with peers on the same wavelength as them.

Most children don't need excessive tutoring but do need to familiarise themselves with the test, as it is simply not fair that they are competing with other children who have been better prepared.

My DH was at a high achieving state school - it's selective now - he says he had an interview to go there but no exam. Students who were not expected to achieve the desired grades had their parents called in who were told that the school did not really suit their children, and maybe they would be happier in a different less pressurised environment. So not forced to leave, or told they had to, but the message was clear.

They also used to tell students what subjects they were allowed to take based on aptitude, even if the students had interests elsewhere. In those cases "timetabling" would mean that people strangely ended up with the subjects they were good at rather than those they enjoyed/wanted to do.

Of course all that was a few years back! But I think schools with a perfect exam record to maintain can be pretty ruthless.

You can't be asked t leave a grammar school any more than you can be asked to leave any other state school.

Politely asking people who don't quite make the grade to leave is very much the preserve of teh independent school IME!

When I sat the 11+ (late 70's) approx 85% of the children who got into the grammar school came from 2 primary schools in the very middle class areas of the city and only 15% from the working class/poorer primaries. So when people go on about grammars promoting social mobility in the past I think its all a bit rose tinted. When our grammar became a comp in my 2nd year the children from the grammar occupied the top 3 sets and everyone else were put in the next 6 sets (middle and bottom). All the grammar school children were entered for olevels and most of the other kids did either cses or nothing. Again about 90% of the top sets and 10% of the other children went on to do alevels and to higher education.
My point is upper/ middle class kids have always had an advantage in education through tutoring /private ed etc and its only recently that this has been exposed hence the fuss.
In my day it was pretty normal to be transferred to the 2ndry modern if you were'nt keeping up and they would be swapped with a child from the 2ndry modern who was doing better!

As a nanny serving in London I can honestly say this tutoring thing has gone beyond a joke. All of my school aged charges are quite literally crammed at a tutors since the day they started school (aged 3) There are tutors for different subjects who all set homework plus the homework the school sets plus the endless round of extra curricular activities to exhaust enrich the poor things and at the end of it I have to deal with exhausted, stressed out kids. They might have passed their exams but I really do worry as if they needed all that cramming then maybe they shouldn't be there and the emotional cost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Far higher than any overpriced tutor

We just received the call up letter for an exam in early January for entry to Year 3 in a (private) academic girls school in NW London. (Had registered younger DD there as we were choosing schools for elder DD). Child to be dropped off for three and a half hours and to have exams in maths, english and NVR. I laughed. The only way that I would allow my six year old to sit that would be if they let me be a fly on the wall and watch as she got up after ten minutes, demanded a 'biskie' (bribe to learn her weekly spellings) and walked out. The irony is that - whilst certainly not a genius please don't get me wrong - she is doing fairly well in a reasonably academic primary ie she might just be a child who would thrive within an academic school. And yet without spending between now and January tutoring she would certainly fail - and I absolutely refuse to do that for a six year old. I dread to think of the number of little girls being drilled in NVR (don't even know what it is!) instead of enjoying their spare time. It's bad enough for 10-11 year olds but this is just bonkers.