Atheist in Catholic school

[KidsTunes]

Our DD started in a Catholic school last week and we're atheists - or, at least, me and her mother are, I don't suppose you can really assign a tag like that to a 4 year old. She's going to that school because we live out in the countryside and it's our local school, and besides 90-something percent of schools in Ireland are Catholic.

Anyway, they do a morning prayer in class, and the idea is making me feel a little squirmy. We discussed it with the principal before she started, and he recommended we don't take her out of the classroom when there's religious education going on so she wouldn't feel excluded, but now I feel odd about the whole thing

Any thoughts?

No one has ever actually told me I would burn in hell, Glasto. But I can't pretend I would take offence if they did - would have a good laugh though!

I did mean it as a bit of a joke, but I was also making a small point. It seems that religious people are allowed to judge me and my views in myriad ways, and tell me at length about why I'm wrong, but the minute I disagree its 'Ohhh you're being offensive!' FWIW, I find it pretty offensive that my child has to waste a lot of valuable schooling time on something that I presonally believe is as relevant as alchemy or astrology, yet if I brook an objection I'm being offensive. Its ridiculous.

stillstanding, Yeah I laughed too, alothough I wasn't laughing when my MIl said it to my five year old.

Glastocat, just to be absolutely clear - I take no offence to your arguments at all - in fact I agree with most of them. It is just the name-calling I can't stand.

There is so much of this "loony", "invisible friend", "superstitious" chat on MN re people who have faith and it riles me. I really do find it offensive in the same way that I find calling people racist or sexist names offensive. Just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean that I have to call someone else who does petty names - I am quite able to make my arguments without that.

As for your MIL, I would be absolutely raving mad ... I trust she got a thorough bollocking??

My parents believe I will burn in hell and I don't think they'd shirk from informing my dds about this. and they aren't that unusual, they are only CofE. I do actually find that irritating. Offensive, even. the dds are being taught by evangelical christians in school too, despite it being a community school.

A thorough bollocking is putting it mildly. . She hasn't given up though.

My argument is WHY are non believers allowed to voice their opinions. If I think you believe in a sky pixie, why is it offensive to say it? Why is that worse than believers telling me I'm a sinner who is going to hell?

That should be not allowed to voice their opinions.

Given that this thread started about faith schools, another thing I don't find particularly tolerant or inclusive is the fact that nationally, faith schools take fewer pupils from poor background (using the free school meals criterion of poor backgrounds), fewer children with special needs, and fewer children of asylum seekers and refugees. I would expect faith schools to be taking more of all these categories, if they were actually being inclusive and tolerant.

I think everyone is entitled to voice their opinions, Glasto, but they need to try to do it a respectful and courteous way. This goes for discussion on religion as well as everything else.

There are civilised ways of debating religion. If I believe in unicorns and you say "you believe in unicorns" it isn't remotely offensive.

But if I believe in Allah and you say "you believe in a sky pixie" than that is deliberately antagonistic and unnecessary. Contrast with "you believe in Allah who does not exist [insert argument here]". The person might not like hearing that but it is not offensive in the way that I am talking about iyswim?

I would say quite a few of the parents don't care all that much about religion, based on my experiences and observations of school in Ireland in the seventies and eighties. Despite or perhaps because of going to the nuns, most of my friends now never darken the doorway of a church. My own DCs attended parochial school in the US where in addition to religion, children are required to stand up and recite the pledge of allegiance, hand over heart, facing the flag, every morning before prayers (which consist of praying for DCs special worries). I absolutely hated the idea of the pledge, but thought my DCs should do it anyway, and they did. It's done in every school, so there's no escaping it. I shared my reservations with them when they got older, but thought when they were young it would all be a bit heavy for them, and single them out if they were to respectfully decline to join in. Thinking back to how much I can't remember at all about what I learned in school (many a grey area in grammar, maths, seven (six?) deadly sins, gifts of the holy spirit (only four spring to mind)) it's highly likely most of what your DC picks up will be easily shaken off with hardly any effort at all. At the very least, this experience will help her to become a person who can think for herself. BTW, the non-catholic children in the parochial school (quite a few) spent communion preparation time reading quietly or doing alternative work provided and graded by the teacher. Confirmation was handled through the parish, not in school. 'Values and tolerance' yes, this is what my DCs were taught in religion, a lot of respecting others and being kind, importance of helping others (many food collections for the parish food pantry, collections for Darfur, education about social justice at home and abroad). Also, you're clearly living in an Irish catholic community where religion is probably part of the wallpaper, but I wouldn't be surprised to find as many opinions about religious tenets as there are cows or sheep or whatever. 'Forty shades of green/ sixty shades of red' (Bob Geldof)

I think the trouble is that, to many atheists, many of the main religions do appear to teach, and directly encourage, disrespectful and uncourteous behaviour.

I know that from within a religious framework this isn't how it seems (I've been there, I know the inside arguments well) but from an atheist worldview, it really does seem that religion causes a great deal of intolerance and division and unhappiness.

That's why atheists tend to rise to the suggestion that it's all jolly nice to hear about each other's lovely little worldviews without any critical appraisal. Because religion, or lack of it, can be a life or death issue for many in many parts of the world, and causes huge issues. It may (for the sake of argument) bring some benefits, but from an atheist framework it certainly does cause problems, it's not an innocuous little thing that it's nice for children to pick up at school.

Glasto, thinking about your question "If I think you believe in a sky pixie, why is it offensive to say it? Why is that worse than believers telling me I'm a sinner who is going to hell?" a little more ... I stand by what I said above that everyone needs to be respectful when voicing their opinions and the believer needs to be just as sensitive about the non-believer's views.

However, for me personally, there is a difference in the two questions. For a person with faith, their relationship with God or Allah or whatever is a deep and spiritual and a very important part of who they are. He is a sacred thing and you calling Him a sky pixie must be deeply upsetting. Whereas if someone where to say to me that I am a sinner who is going to hell I really wouldn't give a toss. It would mean nothing to me as I don't believe there is anything in it. It doesn't cause the same level of offence in me iysim?

But I am not saying that religious people have a get out jail card to say whatever they like - mutual respect and courtesy is the only way forward.

I'd let her attend RE. It's better to reject something from an informed position than from a position of ignorance. I'm an atheist, went 9 years to a catholic school, and always had top marks in RE, as I was participating a lot, by challenging the teacher about the subject matter.

Knowledge about Christianity is important to understand European culture, so by all means let her be educated about it. Tell her that she needn't believe in the big beard in the sky, but that it's always good to know what other people believe in.

That's a fair point stillstanding. However my views and opinions are blatantly not respected by a lot of the Catholics I know. I feel that while religion is forced on me, I reserve the right to say I think its a load of old bollocks. IRL I will only say that to people who are disrespecting my beliefs, (or those who don't mind a bit of heated debate). But while my child is forced to spend a lot of school time on something that I believe is nonsense, I reserve the right to csay what I feel about it. And if that offends anyone, well believe me I'm just as offended by some of the many words and actions of people who think they are good god-fearing Christians.

Fennel, re your post on faith schools themselves, I expect all schools to be inclusive and tolerant. I don't expect faith schools to take more of the categories you mentioned - they don't have the monopoly on inclusivity or tolerance - but they should certainly take their share. I don't know if it's true that they don't or how they do that but it is unacceptable if they do.

I think your and my RL experience of religion is very different. Mine has definitely been innocous and mild and overall a positive thing. No evangelism, no burning in hell, no creationism. Generally in the UK I find that most CoE people are practically apologetic about their religion. I have had absolutely no cause for concern in anything that has been said or taught to my children.

That is obviously not your experience and I know that I would have a great deal to say if my parents where talking fire and brimstone to my children.

I also know that religion has caused enormous grief all over the world (massive understatement!) but imo that does not mean that that exposure to it should be limited. In my opinion exposure to it - in a positive way with critical appraisal - is the way to introduce tolerance and understanding.

It's better to reject something from an
informed position than from a position of
ignorance

Well, that's swung it for me. Good answer, WidowWadman

That which it requires no evidence to believe requires no evidence to reject.

An informed position would, in my opinion, take both sides, examine each side dispassionately, consider the arguments for and against, compare and contrast. And then make a reasoned judgement based on the best evidence available.

I don't think most school RE and religious worship does this.

I don't think most school RE and religious
worship does this.

Of course not. But, having had a taste of Catholicism in school and atheism at home, I expect she'll come to an informed opinion herself. No-one can do that for her

But just as the children from atheist homes might benefit from learning about Christianity, so might the children from Catholic homes benefit from learning about secular ideas and systems of ethics.

in that sense the children of people who are explicitly atheists attending faith schools (or any UK school) are OK because they will be exposed to (at least) two conflicting moral and epistemological worldviews, but I think children from religious homes should also get the benefit of being exposed to other ways of thinking.

Interesting point, Fennel - I agree that children should be exposed to different worldviews and systems of views.

I suspect though that, generally speaking, the children from religious homes in the UK are exposed to other ways of thinking even if they were to go to a faith school. For example, the things that they would read or see in the media are very unlikely to be positively in favour of Christianity but more likely to be negative or at least neutral. In RL I know very few religious people and would say that the vast majority of the people in the circles in which I move are atheist if not actively proclaiming it. I see very little "faith" around in my RL and so I would say that a child living around here would probably struggle to avoid seeing secular ideas! But that is all obviously anecdotal and may not be the norm at all ...

I would also say that a lot of faith schools work very hard to ensure that they cover all religions. The local faith school where I live is much more inclusive with a diverse RE curriculm than the "non-faith" local school.

I am not a ctaholic. Neither is dh. But all his family is. Ds1 is at a catholic school. I love it. Their loving ethos is so incredibly beaqutiful. And I like taking him to mass. Although I don't go that often.
I can't see a way round this. Shocked that you would want he not to attend the morning prayer class.
I mean did you talk about all these issues before? Do you feel 'squirmy' suddenly? surely you addressed all these issues before ?
What are your alternatives. what can you realistically expect ? can you get her into another school ? do you want to ?

Thing is, there aren't options here. I'm in the exact same situation, my 5 year old started at the local national catholic school last week, and we are staunch atheists. Its the only school place available to us, we have no choice.

I had a meeting with his teacher yesterday, we came to some compromises. He will sit in on RE class, which at this stae is mainly about being nice and nature and woolly stuff like that, but will not have the workbook, he can colour in instead. At prayer time he can join in if he chooses, but he is not to be told he has to, he just has to be quiet so as not to disturb others. He is not to be told he is wrong if he states that we don't believe in god or anything, but he will be encouraged to be respectful of others and they will be of him.

I know its going to get worse as he moves towards communion age for example, but as we don't have any choice we just have to make the best of it. I will tell him what we think of religion and faith, and teach him about other religions, and encourage him to think for himself. I think at this stage its all we can do.

But I have to admit, like the OP, the thought of my son saying prayers does make me feel sort of squirmy. I can't help it!

Your solution sounds good pooexplosions, we had a chat with the principal before she started but I guess we need to talk to the teacher too

A school should be able to have a "loving ethos" without this unhealthy obsession with obsequiousness towards an inmaginary being and self-abnegation.