Anotehr hypocritical memeber of socialist royalty changes her mind about selective education when it affects HER child

[MrsGuyofGisbourne]

Julia Hobsbawm this time, daughter of the odious Eric.
here
Apparently a bog standard comp was good enough for ther step-daughter, though...

And of course grammar schools by definition have to be exclusive. They offer an elite education precisely because they exclude the majority. Supposedly on academic grounds but selection on academic grounds brings with it selection by the education, wealth, aspiration of the parents.

Anecdotal evidence of the minority of working class kids who benefited from grammar schools as a ladder out of poverty etc etc does not alter the fact that grammar schools are only ever going to educate a privileged elite. That is their raison d'etre

Completely agree Stewie.

Can I just make the point though that even though one may be against private schools in principle the fact that up to 30% of children in them receive some sort of bursary up to 100% off fees mean that they can and do offer an amazing education to bright kids whose parents have a very low income.

I said MORE representative in some schools, not completely representative in any.
I don't dispute for a moment that most grammar schools at the moment are socially unrepresentative. But then, so are most top comprehensives and certainly most private schools.

But only a handful of bright kids whose parents can afford a proportion of the fees + extortionate uniform and all the other extras.

My little sister had an assisted place. Still cost my mother £££££ in uniform and everything else. (I didn't get one as I moved at 14 due to hideous bullying at allegedly 'good' comp that was still trading on its reputation as an ex-grammar.)

(Although to be fair, the school hung on for my fees when my mother was made redundant and had an operation that went wrong that left her too ill to look for a job for best part of a year.)

So, if a parent wishes their child could go to a genuinely egalitarian school, but they live in an area with grammar schools, what should they do? Do they have to send them to the "secondary modern" which is what a lot of "comprehensives" really are, or take a grammar place which is there and available and their child gets a place at?

I don't see anything immoral in doing what you can for your cild in the system which is there, while saying that system should not exist.

I'd agree that there shouldn't be 2-tier state education, but there is. In fact there's a multi-tier system in most places because of all the factors which limit your actual choices of schools.

FiveCandles, since you introduced the free school meals criterion to the thread, I would be interested to know what proportion of the 30% of private school pupils who you say get bursaries are eligible for free school meals.
Incidentally, at the grammar my dad went to, I doubt many of them would have been on free school meals (even had they been similarly available then) because miners in work tended to earn a reasonably good wage as working class wages went - but they were quite definitely working, not middle, class.

I don't see anything immoral in using any of the options available to you in whatever circumstance you find yourself, whether that be buying private, getting a child into gramar, moving into the catchment of a better comp or going to private school thanks to a bursary.
What is immoral is policy-makers making decisions for everyone else's children on the assumption that the choices available to them are available to everyone and taking an 'I'm all right Jack' attitude to everyone else.

I live in an area that still has the 11+ and therefore the grammar school system and I went to a grammar school myself. I genuinly don't think that a selective/grammar school necessarily equates to a better school at all - in fact as someone who went to a grammar but was never an a* student I would say that I was largely ignored in favour of the 'more intelligent' pupils - those that will study at Oxford or Cambridge is what I mean by that. The secondary modern schools where I live, I believe, offer the pupils a more rounded education - they focus on vocational as well as academic subjects, I hate the 11+ system I wish they would finish it (unlikely in my area) but the thought of kids being branded a 'failure' at 11 is horrible imo

I, too, would like to hear why OP finds Eric Hobsbawm 'odious'.

Hi
My daughter is at private school on a bursary, we are not rich. I hunted through e bay for new pieces of school uniform for her.
My son is at state school and the uniform is nearly as expensive £140 for new sixth form suit!.
My point is children are different and the schools they are in, while both very different suit my children.
A lot of people argue they dont have a choice but I am prepared to work extra, I have 3 jobs. This is my choice.
What I am not looking forward to is the prospective of social engineering and my dd being rejected by uni because she attended independent school even though are income would put us in a socially acceptable bracket and neither my husbnad or myself went to university.
hey ho

Can I just point out there is a tiny possibility that her son (even though v bright) won't get a place at the grammar school. The best grammar school in my area (in top 6 or whateveer in country) regularly turns away very bright children who have not achieved the absolute top mark in the entrance test, as it is so over subscribed.

It would be interesting then to see what education she 'chooses' for her child. Personally, I don't have a problem with grammar schools. The crux comes when one's v bright child doesn't get the place one has assumed they will get.

edam - I went to a private school on full assisted place - uniform, IIRC travel costs, and even a few university interview train fares got reimbursed.

galaxymummy - interesting point re:uni admissions. Must admit at the time I was applying I was quite irked at the thought that I would be deemed to be more privileged than someone at a state grammar whose parents were very wealthy. In the event I didn't feel there was any social engineering working against me - I applied for specific courses at good but varied Unis - so I didn't just go down the top 8 of the Russell Group.

Hi Tootal chaos, may I ask when you attended uni?
My dd is interested in english with psychology or psychology with english. I think she will have a better chance with specific courses at non russell group unis although she has romantic Ideals of being punted downriver at oxbridge

Another one wanting to know why Eric is odious.

He may be a socialist - but I don't think that Julia would ever decribe herself as any such thing. The New Labour credo she enthusiastically espouses is consciously NOT socialist. Which may explain why she finds consevative education policy so appealing.

But quite why anybody is remotely interested in what she has to say, I have no idea.

95 to 98, so probably not recent enough to be of much use! If she wants to try for Oxbridge, and is expected to get top grades, then why not (obviously assuming she has checked out the course content and has been to visit, and finds both to her taste). I think Oxford English course has finally dropped the compulsory anglo-saxon topic now . As a sweeping generalisation - in my day Oxford undergrad degrees tended to aim for depth rather than breadth of subjects, and so were more "traditional" in terms of subjects studied.

Kathy, most if not all bursaries are means tested. At my dcs' school you get a bursary if you have a family income of maybe less than £15,000.

I'd be willing to bet there are more children who would qualify for free school meals at my dcs' school which is also ethnically and relgiously diverse than at our nearest state grammar school.

Also agree about the 2nd hand unform. In fact, I know of one girl who got a place at the school on the Friday and was kitted out in full school uniform for free from the school's 2nd hand stuff for Monday.

All money from 2nd hand sales go back into the school via the parents' association so spent directly on the children.

Not necessarily anything immoral about her choice but it's the way she justifies it that rankles.

Indeed 5C. Her 'justification' is that the child chose - but presumably only from the pre-selection she offered to him. So he's the one to take any stickk then from her 'North London' friends - nice. I wonder if she too him to look around Eton , and if he had like the library there - probably pretty good - and begged to go, if she would have acquiesced so easily? Using the child is a cop-out - don't we as parents make major decsions for our ten year olds?
Also the breezy 'we are having him tutored' -just so to get all the dirty washing out in one go - the poor boy - easily identified by his mates is in for very rocky year, especially if he doesn't get in, now all the world knows he begged her to let him apply - what planet is a parent like her on?

Actually nowadays I would no blaim ayone for wanting their kid in a privae school as things have changed.

It used to be working class meant

unions, communities, left wing students supporing good causes

Now it just means psycopathic education hating chavs, gang members, thugs, football yobs, where bullying no longer means fists for dinner money but the very real threat of getting knifed, shot or beasten to death and giving the bully a bloody nose may well be signing your death warrent.

So cant blaim a parent for wanting their kid to be surrounded by students and kids who actually want to learn like 'Hogworts without the magic' and not be in constant danger from postcode knife gangs

As the honerable working class dont exist anymore

JoeyF Mon 31-Aug-09 19:49:55
Now it just means psycopathic education hating chavs, gang members, thugs, football yobs, where bullying no longer means fists for dinner money but the very real threat of getting knifed, shot or beasten to death and giving the bully a bloody nose may well be signing your death warrent.

How offensive, my family and I are working class, both dp and I are educated to degree level and I teach so we are hardly education hating.

Yes just spotted the religious education thread, I think I know who this person is and she is very unpleasant so I am staying off mumsnet tonight