5 yearly competence checks for teachers - good idea?

[2kidzandi]

The government is thinking of assessing the competency of teachers every 5 years. Those who don't pass the checks will have their teaching licence removed. Is this a good idea? I think teaching is already over prescribed, and if anything, teachers are already subjected to OFSTED inspections and have too much paperwork and not enough time to concentrate on the children already. But then I haven't known any really awful teachers, so maybe i'm biased.

In theory I'm all in favour of hoofing out crap teachers.

However, where are the replacement, shit-hot teachers to come from? Let's get recruitment AND retention sorted before we start kicking people out.

It's all hot air & smoke-blowing atm. Unworkable electioneering.

Well I sat in a meeting about the Teach First teacher-training scheme recently, seething as the guy told us how they would solve education's problems by putting 'strong graduates into schools in deprived areas' - I was thinking, 'well what the fuck have I been doing for the last nearly 20 years then?' If they want schemes like this to work they must first of all not set out to alienate the existing good graduates who are proved good teachers but might still be in schools with low results. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

proven - not proved. Ranting made my fingers fly too quickly! Ignore any other typos.

Our children deserve the very best teachers our society can provide. Just as they deserve the very best doctors and nurses. The best teachers are those who have the most superb subject qualifications and are inspirational practitioners. We should not be employing people who have very basic subject qualifications themselves to inspire and teach our children. Effective teachers don't mind being assessed because it's a way of recognising their success and ensuring that standards are kept high. No extra paper work or lesson plans should be required.

We should have the cream of our society teaching our children. ALL our teachers should be as well qualified as our doctors. I know many who are, I know more who aren't.

But ALL teachers (in the state sector) are qualified to at least degree level.

Now, there's the rub!! There are degrees and degrees!!

So what standards re subject qualifications would you like to see then Daisy?

They might have degrees but not necessarily in the right subject. I have worked with teachers who have degrees in other subjects and have made no effort to update there subject knowledge. They then spout nonsense at the students and wonder why eventually the students loose respect for them.

As a teacher you are constantly updating your subject knowledge, it must be very hard if you do not have a firm foundation to start with.

DaisyDancer are we then going to start paying them as though they were 'the cream of our society'

I am an 'effective teacher' 'outstanding' if you care what OFSTED think, but I do mind the thought of 5 year assessment, because I think it will divert funds from other aspects of education.

We have annual performance management, we now need to give Heads greater power to use that as a tool for getting rid of ineffective teachers.

Pay teachers like doctors/solicitors, then you might daisydancer's 'cream of society' into teaching.

Currently, I can't see tough schools, which have difficulty putting bods in front of a class, (particularly in Maths, Physics and Chemistry) willingly getting rid of the teachers they've got, even if they're not great.

Well, next year I shall be teaching three subjects, two of which I have degrees in. I'm teaching a subject now that I don't have a degree in (Physics) because there is no-one else to do it. We can't recruit a physicist who can handle a class, and in our school that I'm afraid does trump in depth subject knowledge. I have done loads of extra work to bring myself up to speed and keep myself ahead, and I'd rather not really, although it's been rather interesting.

As someone said further down, it's all very well talking about getting rid of teachers, (and I think for everyone's sake, including their own, poor teachers should move on) and about all teachers having fab qualifications, but if there just aren't the candidates for the job, then it's all just hot air.

Trickerg - yes but not necessarily 'good' degrees! I still think teachers should have to have at least a 2:1 but I know others feel differently and it's not really the place for a discussion. Maybe a different thread at some point?

Heated has raised a very good point. In some schools recruitment of teachers is very difficult, not because it is a bad school (Ofsted good with outstanding features) but because of the area, pupil intake etc. In those instances it is generally better to have a just satisfactory teacher who is there every day than to have a series of supply teachers. Schools like that tend to 'create their own outstanding teachers and leaders' through nurturing and thus retaining staff - but there will always be some teachers who are not particularly effective but still better than nothing.

While your situation may not be ideal FM as you imply you are making the effort to plug in the gaps in your knowledge - that is different to not having the subject knowledge and not doing anything about it.

I dont think chucking more money at us is the answer, you will end up with more people who end up in teaching because it is a secure job and pays the bills rather than because they are passionate about that subject and education.

When I taught in a tough school I often taight out o my subject area because the management knew I could control the kids. I taught from memory at least 3 subjects on top of my own. I like FM spent hours and hours a week preparing for these lessons. I now teach humanities to year 7 and again have to spend a lot of time updating my subject knowlege, but even then I would not want to be given the responisbility of teaching KS4 or perhaps even year 9.

I agree Janeite, but what a thought to know you are there because you are better than nothing.

"we now need to give Heads greater power to use that as a tool for getting rid of ineffective teachers."

yes, that is what we need, not more monitoring of absolutely everyone at hreat expense. Management already monitor, they know who's poor.

Unfortunately Flatcap, those teachers tend to not realise this, which is probably why they don't improve because it is always the fault of the pupis, other teachers, the syllabus, whatever.

It is those teachers (a very, very small minority in my experience) that there needs to be some system to address more effectively. Instead they put more pressure on the whole to try and deal with a minority - it's like whole-class detentions and therefore likely to be ineffective!

In traditional subjects, 2:1 from a good university which required excellent A level (or equivalent) results to get into. For vocational subjects, the equivalent - the very best. This should be followed by superb teacher training. Yes, our teachers should be the best and they should be paid as such.

Point taken angrypixie, another assessment on top of OFSTED would be costly so maybe we should be ensuring that our teachers are of the highest quality before they start!

I lost an 'l' there - pupils not pupis!

I've got a 'drinker's Third' in a degree subject (Classics) other than my teaching specialism (English - they chuck the odd bit of Latin my way now & then).

I am bloody good, I'll have you know.

I don't mind being Performance Managed, Ofsteded, 'Golden lesson'ed or checked up on every 5 years to see that I haven't turned into an utter drivelling idiot around whom the kids are doing wardances.

However, I'm still sceptical as to where more teachers will come from to replace the incompetents. I teach in a good comp, & I'm very aware of appointments (especially part-time or temporary ones) which are a case of ' Well, he'll need a fair bit of support, but he's the best we're going to get'.

I'm not sure academic qualifications are the be all and end all of being a primiary school teacher. Commitment is essential, as well as the ability to organise and prioritise (and I think liking children helps a little bit, too!).
There are so many things to juggle - at the moment, I'm planning, teaching, writing up class lists for next year, monitoring post-SATs, entering TA data, doing 4 lunchtime clubs, planning and taking part in 2 concerts, making a film (and inviting parents to the premiere (with refreshments) - all within the next 10 days. None of that calls on my university degree!

I don't know enough about primary school teaching to say really. I think with secondary it depends on the school. My previous school had a much lower achievement profile and I could probably have managed without my degree. Although you could argue that those children deserve better than teachers who are managing. Perhaps having access to more subject specialists would also raise the pupils levels of attainment.

In my current school I use my degree on a daily basis and I am having to do a second degree to keep up. My students respect the fact that I zm a subject specialist. I teach the grammar stream on every year group and have to constantly update my subject knowledge. I also teach A level and to me it makes sense that I am more qualified in my subject than my pupils.

Of course qualifications are not everything, I have met some awful teachers with first class degrees. But they are important.

Qualifications plus consistency plus common sense plus charisma plus competence = the most effective teachers methinks. Take any one of those out of the equation and things start to wobble.

I really agree, well put Janeite!

problem is when there was a teaching shortage, the government pushes through new recruits with golden handshakes, fast tracking those with degree subjects in shortage areas - just because you've got a degree doesn't make you good teaching material on its own, its not just having subject knowledge but also how to impart that to children. This 5 year check is part of dealing with this problem.

I had a student teacher in my class once and i believed she wasn't making the grade. When I tried to convey this to her tutor at her college I was told that she was on a continuum of teaching abilities, and was not completely incompetent so not to get my knickers in a twist.