Phonics etc at nursery

[norfolklass]

Apologies if this is in the wrong place but just wanted to get some feedback if this is "normal" or not before I approach nursery.

Basically my ds is 4 (end of Feb) and due to start reception in september. He goes to a private nursery for his 12.5 hours sessions simply because it worked in with other stuff (school nursery he had to do all afternoons and we live 30 miles away from my parents and needed to see them as they are elderly and need some help!)

He's been perfectly happy at nursery and has been there since July 07 however when he moved into the pre-school room in Feb last year they were doing loads of phonics stuff and had a letter/number of the week which they tried to get them to learn and find things to bring in which began with that letter etc.

That all stopped the end part of last year which I am assuming is because of the changes in the EYFS which I as interpret it they are not allowed to guide children in activities etc they have to choose what they do themselves.

My ds is a fairly bright little boy (well as they all are!) but is very eager to learn and already knows letters/numbers/phonics etc and is starting to blend cvc words all of which he has been doing at home. Im not some kind of mad pushy mum he is really interested and is constantly asking what does that say so Ive just played games with him with letters/words etc and he's picked so much up.

Anyway the point Im making is that they don't seem to be doing anything at nursery and its concerning me slighty. Im not expecting them to be chained to a desk all day but surely there are ways to learn through play rather than just running around which is basically all they seem to be doing.

I mentioned the other day that ds had been blending some cvc words at home and maybe they could do some with him at nursery like ffinding a picture of a cat and writing cat etc and getting him to blend it...to which they said we can't they'll do that at school. Yet the children in the school nursery have "reading" books (ie books for mum/dad to read to them) and other stuff to ddo so surely its not something they actually can't do at nursery.

If there is anyone out there who knows what nursery can or can't do with regards to phonics etc then please help. Im really no pushy mum I just want to harness his interest while he actually wants to do stuff.

You will be better off making sure that he can

dress and undress for PE
manage coat and shoes
wipe his bottom
recognise numbers 0 to 10

If you are dead keen on doing more letter work then please check with school which system they use, so that you don't teach him the 'wrong' way

learning through play is a vital part of EYFS

When does he start school? TBH, personally I think the extra you do at home would be enough for now... We have the same - a letter a week but my DS is just 3 so more his sort of thing.

OK, my view is that he's only 4 and that if they are allowed to run around at nursery that is a good thing - he's got YEARS of formal education ahead of him and I think play is just as valuable, if not more so, at that age. What is he going to do with his reading at that age anyway? Sit and read books by himself? I understand that he's interested, but if he's only in nursery 12.5 hours then there's plenty of time to do this with him yourself - it sounds as if you know quite a lot about it (more than I do anyway )

There aren't really rules about this. There's no 'can't' - however lots of nurseries now choose to stay away from formal phonics teaching due to the new curriculum and the messages they receive aren't always clear. My son's pre-school asked me to help with some simple phonics teaching last year (I was a primary school teacher pre-babies). The staff were experienced folks but seemed to have lost their confidence in this area due to the mixed messages. Their LEA was saying do some phonics but the national strategies were saying to focus on 'phase one'/ pre-phonics stuff.
It is very hard because while some of the children ARE ready for it before school some definitely are NOT. Our country's obsession with the early teaching of phonics has actually done us no favours. Young children switch off learning to read and write far too easily as they are pushed too early (not saying this is you but as a nation this can be the pattern).
My son (who is now finishing Reception and turning 5 at the end of July) was one of the ready ones. He was desperate to get started. I bought the Jolly Phonics scheme - some finger phonics books, the posters, the CD - and he flew through it and is now a very confident 'free reader'. I was intentionally going to hold back as I know how early teaching of reading and writing can backfire but he was really showing signs of being ready and was asking constantly.

If you've got the time to do some stuff with him yourself and you really sense he is ready for it, then I would go for it on an individual basis. But I honestly wouldn't expect too much from the nursery on this. They can't devote much one-to-one time. If he already creating CVC words that's probably what he would need and it would actually be potentially harmful (strong word but you get the gist) if they pushed the other children too soon before they are ready. Pre-phonics sound work, segmenting games, fine motor skills stuff in preparation for writing are more valuable for the majority of the age group.

The national strategies website can also be useful with suggestions for activities and progression. They also have a video of the correction pronouncation of the phonemes:
nationalstrategies.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/node/85357?uc=force_uj

I know this isn't straightforward if you are very busy or working and may not have the time for one-to-one but I think decent one-to-one teaching from you is probably the way forward. Although I was trained as a teacher I was a junior teacher and I don't think I have some magic tricks up my sleeve. With a bit of reading around you'd be more than capable (you obviously are).

Thanks guys for all your messages-much appreciated!

Had a feeling my post was going to come across as Im desperate for him to be reading etc and Im really not. Its more that I actually want him to be doing something at nursery ie playing and not wandering aimlessly around which is what he (and lots of the others!) seem to be doing at the moment! They all just look so fed up all the time (and Im talking staff as well as the children!). Went in yesterday to pick him up and he was playing in the garden and while passing through I saw one of the little girls attempting to nearly strangle (sure that wasn't her intention lol!) one of the smaller ones with a skipping rope. So I gently prised said rope off them and showed them how to make shapes with it on the ground cause they were obviously looking to do something with it...which led to one of the other children saying "oh that looks like an S" so I left them trying to make letter shapes out of some skipping ropes and having loads of fun.
That is what I mean...surely thats what nursery and these early years should be about but it just seems like they can't be bothered to do anything at all with them. I thought it might have been because of this EYFS change but maybe not...maybe its just the staff. They have had so so many staff changes in the last 6 months its untrue so something isn't right somewhere!

Boysarelikedogs (fab name btw!)he can do all that (well apart from bum wiping which he can do but mummy makes sure lol!) so he's ok on that score. I totally understand they should be learning through play but there isn't much of anything happening!

Ladywaffle-I would have been more than happy with a letter/number a week but they've stopped doing it because they've said they aren't allowed to do letters etc anymore??

Midnightexpress-he goes to school in september when he'll be 4.6(and Im dreading it lol!) Im more than happy for him to be running around playing as I said Im so not expecting them to be chained to a desk or anything that the last thing I want but I was just thinking that surely there must be ways to encourage a childs enthusiasm for things without making it a complete free for all which is what it seems most of the time in there.

Samjamsmum-Thank you that link is really useful...will have a look in more detail later. Like you I had no intention of doing anything like this until he was at school but when he being asked constantly what does that say mummy,what are those words you feel like you have to do something so we started just playing letter games,i-spy etc and we've got words on the fridge like and,the,is,at etc which we play games with and match up. Its totally all fun and only when he initiates it...Im not sitting there demanding that he does it lol!
Im very lucky that although I do work its at weekend so Im at home with him all week so have got tons of time with him.

Im really sorry if Ive come across as some pushy parent who is desperate for her child to be doing x y z because Im so not like thats its untrue...was just trying to gauge whether its a national thing really that nurserys weren't doing letter/number work with the children anymore because of the changes with the EYFS or if it was just this one!

Now off to make flapjacks with him for daddy seeing as the rain as put pay to our trip to the park this afternoon!

I have been through the same thinking about nursery and given up on them doing anything beyond helping him have fun which is of course the most important thing at this age!

Ds is due to start reception in September and is 4 in June and is also 'pushing' me to help him read - not the other way round so I do understand where you're comign from.
He has been blending words for quite a while and can read (and crucially I believe then understand) sentences of simple words e.g. "the man was going to the red car". For a while I was frustrated that nursery weren't doing anything to 'move him on' but I echo what one of the others said, that they just can't do one on one with children that much at this age.

I've given up on nursery doing anything with him on this now to be honest. It's just not what they're there to do. He is happy, has tons of fun there and gets his reading questions answered by me at home!

No idea whether reception will do anything pitched at the 'right' level for him, whether it will be learning letter sounds for ages or just 100% play but we'll see...the good thing is that ds isn't bored at nursery which is the classic worry with this sort of thing.

It might even do his confidence good to do lots of stuff he knows so he can answer the questions as he can be a little shy.

So overall I'd say just live with the way the nursery is as it's not really their remit to do this stuff these days and there's only a few months left before your ds starts school.

Could you expand him sideways -

heavy/light

floating/sinking

maps/dinosaurs/the seasons - all abstract notions that are q sophisticated iyswim

pigs-glad its not just mine iykwim? Mine is quite shy as well (well around others he's so not shy at home lol!)so I agree it will do his confidence some good to "know" some stuff.

I think in my case its me generally being not quite happy with the nursery...I just want him to enjoy these last few months there and with me but instead he seems (and I say seems because obviously I know things are not always wht they appear to be!) bored out of his brain and desperate to get to school...which is so not what I want lol!

Boysarelikedogs-thats a really good idea thank you. He is very interested in maps and the world n stuff so we've got globes/atlas' and we talk about different places etc. He's also become very interested in gardening thank to nanny n grandad so we've planted loads of veg and some sunflowers which he's loved.
Im totally useless at stuff like that so am finding it increasingly hard to answer his questions lol!
Current obsession of the week is that he wants some binoculars to try and see whats happening far far away (apparently lol!)

Thanks for all the replies...they are much appreciated.

have to say my son's pre-school did v v little formal pre-learning, or phonics etc. He is a v bright boy and was reading already when he went to school. BUT I was glad he didn't do it at pre-school, in my opinion he went to meet other kids, get used to the structure, have fun. Not to learn phonics.

read through the thread a bit more - pigs, I had similar to what you wonder about re reception, ds1 really got v little out of it and if anything alot of his learning and concepts went backwards because being at school limited the time he spent at home and therefore the available time to play games, explore and learn in a 1-on-1 environment.
Having said that he is loving yr 1.

What my ds loves most is just having an adult to himself - or almost - so he can grill them with questions. So reception will be a bit of a shock when he has to share the teacher + an assistant with 29 other kids!

Fundamentally the issue here, it seems is 'what are preschool nurseries for?'

If you believe they're for 'academic' education then they do diddly for children who don't fit average. But if you believe they're for playing and being in a group environment ready for school then they are fine. I had to adjust my expectations from the first to the second and am now happy with where he goes.

My discomfort could increase when the others are learning if things don't keep up with where ds is at - I don't see why he shouldn't move on at a similar pace to others despite starting at a different point to 'average'. We'll see.

Boysarelikedogs is quite right - that's all fab stuff for this kind of kid (or maybe all kids, I don't know?) Little playful science experiments and projects go down a treat in our house.

"That all stopped the end part of last year which I am assuming is because of the changes in the EYFS which I as interpret it they are not allowed to guide children in activities etc they have to choose what they do themselves."

Norfolklass - that's not really right. Children should certainly have the opportunity to choose what they want to do, but there's also most definitely a place for the adults at the setting to guide children towards some activities, or to take choose a particular group of children to take part in small group activities based around particular concepts.

I know that at times, given the choice, my dd would have done nothing but dressing-up for weeks on end, with the same friend. As part of her social and emotional development, she was supported by the nursery teacher to take part in different activities, with different children.

BALD speaks sense - expand him sideways.