What would your ideal education system be like?

[MotherofInvention]

I grew up in Scandinavia in the 1970s, where most kids went to kindergarden or just knocked around at home with a SAHPs or grandparents until the age of 7. We all went to neighbourhood state school because there weren't any private ones. There was no pressure to move to get into the 'right' school, no hectic traffic-ridden school run as we all went to a local school which was walkable, no uniforms and no grades or exams until we were 13. I loved it, and would prefer my kids to experience something similar.

Every single parent I've met in the UK has concerns about their children's schooling, especially about starting them at 3 or 4. And it seems many teachers feel the same way - have a look (and listen) here: Call to start school at age six

So if you were PM for a day or two in charge of the education system, what would you change, if anything?

Sorry but I think we need to agree to disagree children don't need to be removed and taught separately just provided with appropriate tasks and resources to carry out those tasks.

yep totally disagree!

I agree with marypoppins here. I have two close relatives with serious LDs, and there is no way it would be appropriate for them to be in a mainstream school. They are too different to their age peers to have friends in the mainstream in their age group (one is non verbal in any case). Their lessons are utterly different too, it wold be totally pointless to try and support them in a mainstream school, and they would hate it (secondary schools are very frightening places for those with AS for example). They attend a fantastic very specialist school that has brought about some real progress and supported their emotional needs. There should be more schools like that, not less.

For some children inclusion (with the right support) is great, and absolutely the right thing, but for others it really really is not. In an ideal system there would be many choices available so that the right setting was found for each child.

Children need to work in ways less comfortable to them as it extends their learning? I disagree. I think it frustrates and alienates some children and damages self-esteem.

I will repeat what I said yesterday

By mrz on Sun 12-Apr-09 21:29:33
tryingtobemarypoppins with respect I think you are missing the whole point of this thread. The title says it all ideal education system ...

many children's special needs could be fully met given adequate funding

of course there will be some children who cannot access mainstream in fact there will be children who will be unable to access any setting but with the right support many more could remain with their friends within their own community.

I have a non verbal child beginning in my class next year and have 2 children (ASD) in my present class... and they aren't removed just taught to suit their learning styles.

More flexibility about school starting age as they have in Scotland and Ireland. I was talking to an Irish friend recently and there children start school at 5, but they can be rising 5 or even nearly 6. They do not have funded nursery education, but they do have freedom to start their children in the school system when they are ready. They also do not punish late starting by making children skip the first year of primary school as we do.

It seems to me that Britain (apart from Scotland) is out of step with the rest of the world when it comes to early years education. We are also one of the few places that does not allow children (apart from those with complex sn) to repeat school years or go up to secondary school when ready rather than on birthdate.

I think I agree with science teacher and Quattrocento (except for all schools being secular - in an ideal system, I'd like diversity, and a few faith schools pottering along would be OK, for me).

It strikes me that the ideal school system would have to be placed in a framework where there was increased and earlier intervention into all those social and economic issues that result in schools having to take on roles far beyond simple education.

And "inclusion" should be properly funded - or it isn't inclusion at all.

Sort that out and I think we'd be well on our way to achieving an ideal system.

It's interesting, though, beyond that, I think an "ideal" school system varies so much from individual to individual.
Some children thrive in organised, very hierarchical environments, some children love a more loose, spontaneous setting. Some kids love learning through play, others really like a more traditional setting. I've had one of both. It's interesting to see. My personal taste is for creative and loosely organised but that would have driven my ds potty. Whereas dd is miserable in her more traditional school.

That experience has led me to think that the actual nitty gritty of "ideal" is possibly less important than the background (creating stability and the conditions for schools to focus on teaching). And that variety, and the ability of parents to meaningfully choose variety, sould be a really great thing.

I'd like a school system that really encouraged and promoted excellence. To do this, I'd like the school to work with parents and students to find areas in which the child will excel, whether it be academics, sport, music, art, leadership...whatever! There should be lots of opportunity for children to try different activities, and the scope and flexibility to pursue interests. So if a child demonstrates an ability in the flute, say, they should be given the time and resources to build on that.

I think that school buildings are under-used, and they should be open all year round so that the facilities are available for the community. That doesn't mean forcing teachers to work through the holidays; different arrangements could be made. I went to a school that had an attached sports centre, which meant that the sports facilities were open to the public at all times, with some restrictions during the school term. Why not make all school facilities available?

I'd also try and change this obsession with computers for schools, and fund other, under-resourced areas.

Quattro has said it for me.

Agree about the social factors needing to be tackled first/concurrently with improving education. A lot of countries that have better educational results (including the country I was schooled in) have to deal with a lot less diversity and are in fact far less inclusive than the UK's education system.

Persistently disruptive students need to be removed from the student body and given special support in their own environment. That would include being made to repeat an academic year. It is a crime children can leave school without the basics. They should not progress unless they learn the basics on a building block approach.

But being made to repeat the year is an intensely stigmatizing experience. One which tells all your peers that you are stupid, and when you move from a group who you know well and socialise with to one where most friendships have already been formed and you are an outsider. We are currently in Canada, having spent a short time in the States and my son was incredibly worried about being made to stay down a year (and I mean really very stressed, whereas he hadn't even noticed SATS by way of comparison) because he didn't know everything the other children did. In that school they preferred intense coaching (children having extra lessons after school, Saturday morning lessons and summer school were not unusual - and this at a school where two hours of homework for a nine year old was thought quite normal) I wasn't aware of any children staying down there. In our current school there are a couple of children who have stayed down, and everyone knows it (they are also fairly obviously bigger than their peers). I don't think it is an easy or obvious option at all.

I agree, nooka, about the stigmatising effect of being held back. It comes with annual exams to ensure the students are making the grade, which are also pressurising. I grew up in such a system.

The desire to avoid repeating a year is a big incentive to a student to get their act together ahead of the annual exams. To that extent, it achieves the goal of minimum educational standards, though one can argue at what emotional cost.

And if a child is in fact struggling, they would actually benefit from going over past lessons. I don't particularly understand how a child can be promoted year after year without attaining educational standards of the previous year (I don't mean getting As, I mean not even a pass) without them being increasingly alienated by the classroom experience and a pervading sense of futility and failure.

This is particularly so in math and a lesser extent, science, which requires a building block approach. That could possibly be why math attainment in UK is relatively low in comparison to other developed countries.

There are no easy answers.

Madsometimes - I was struck by what you said: "They also do not punish late starting by making children skip the first year of primary school as we do."

Can you elaborate?

Being 'foreign' (although I've lived here half my life) I'm finding the UK education system bewildering, at best. The private system seems so strict and so focused on results and giving parents value for money in terms of academic achievement (which for me translates as pressure on the kids), whereas the state system seems to be fairly chaotic but with definite pockets of excellence and a lot of very hard working and committed teachers who are overloaded with paperwork.

I am aware that the education system in my home country is a) remembered with rose tinted spectacles firmly on, and b) totally different today as a result of new realities such as an emerging private school system, bigger social divides and decades of immigration.There are plenty of debates raging there about how to do it better so it's far from some utopian educational paradise.

However I can't help feeling the system of kindergartens to the age of 6 established in Scandinavia works really well - both as a form of full or part time childcare and as early years education. I wish there was something like it widely available here.

When I first encountered childcare in the UK I found the idea of 'nursery nurses' totally alien - it makes it sound like small children need to be merely nursed, ie. fed, cleaned and watered, instead of being the focus of a more holistic approach to teaching and child development. This was certainly true for the nursery nurses I met at our first nursery, who were barely out of their teens and spent most of their time chatting to each other instead of engaging with the children. They had no clue about child development, and we eventually took our kids out - it seemed more like a storage facility than a place to thrive. But school nurseries/reception seem too focused on literacy and numeracy at an age where I think kids should just play, so we're kind of lost in the middle...

The NUT has clearly said teachers want children to start formal learning aged 7. So I think they should overhaul the system here by establishing kindergartens run by teachers and other professional educators who can care for children's social and cognitive development until they are properly ready to start school. I know there are so many other challenges to tackle, but at least then everybody would get a soft start with enough time for caring adults to focus properly on what their particular needs might be. We all want the best for our kids and it's such a shame it's so difficult to find it.

And don't even get me started on the ridiculous work hours demanded of UK parents ...

Opt in, opt out, shake it all about. No classes, no curriculum, no term time no set hours, no set school.

Instead?

Individual, flexible lerning schemes following the interests of the learners, covering basic skills through projects of interest, using the best of available technology in a flexible, optimal way and self-directed learning.

Using teachers as guides, tutors and inspirers rather than playground police, form fillers and childminders. Enabling children to work and achieve at their pace during hours and on premises that suit them best and what they are currently learning.

Using current schools as community centres for community projects attended and sometimes run by the children............

MotherofInvention, I LOVE the Kindergarten system here in Belgium. My dd started at 2.5. Up til now it has been purely learning through play, but the kids "learn" to socialise, share, sit and pay attention for short periods. At my dd's school they have "themes" - water, the farm, insects, countries, food etc which they "study" with visits, cooking, painting, crafts etc.

In September (aged 5.5) she will start the 3rd maternelle which I believe equates to reception? Even though it not compulsory, take up is 99.5% apparently and this year she will start with the basics of the 3 Rs. She will be 6.5 when she eventually starts Primary level.

Play based education till rising 7.
Smaller class sizes.
Infant schools till 7, middle schools 7-13, then secondary schools.
More time spent outdoors.
No national testing till 11.
More music, art and drama.
Serious emphasis on MFL's from 7.
Better pay for play workers so that providing out of school childcare is regarded as an interesting, rewarding and financially sound career option.

This is an ideal situation - just like to add that I'm pretty happy with what my kids get and only feel vvvvv strongly about the first and final points. I definitely think that our 4-6 year olds and their teachers get a very raw deal curriculum-wise and that play workers should have the same status as teachers (just a different focus).

Like MotherofInvention I was educated in the Scandinavian system and am on the whole very happy with that experience.

Parts that I would like to see replicated in the English system would be:

more time spent outdoors

more emphasis on crafts, particularly in the early years

more emphasis on foreign languages

a later school start and a chance for the parents to decide when their child was ready

Having said that, there are parts of my dc's education here in the UK that seem better to me than what I remember from my own Swedish childhood:

more inclusion of children with SN

more support targeted towards children with difficulties (my own ds is in a bottom set, and I think he has been well supported)

writing skills are better taught; we were taught to spell very accurately, but little about persuasive writing

My ideal?

Free part-time nursery education from 3 to 5.

Primary schools from 5 (meaning 5, not 4) to 14.

After that, vocational schools or academic schools until 18, with the opportunity to attend both part-time or swap at 16.

More play at primary school. More sport, more music, more art, more crafts and at least one compulsory foreign language 5-18, two or more for the more able.

More differentiation of learning styles.

Fewer exams and more FUN! Emphasis on giving children confidence and social skills - that's what makes them successful in the workplace, not how many A*s they got.

More male teachers.

Smaller class sizes.

Secular schools.

Breakfast and after-school clubs in all schools.

Completely agree with Madsometimes.

I will educate my late-August born son as if he was 12 days younger than he actually is. In other words, he will start reception at 5.0 not 4.0.

Very very sadly, my LEA is one of only two in the country allowing parents this option and I will probably be among the last parents allowed to take advantage of it as following Jim Rose's dreadful report this humane policy is likely to be scrapped.

1. sack 25% of teachers. Give the rest a 33% pay rise.
2. sack 100% of paid teaching assistants. Spend the money on teachers to compensate for the increase in class size resulting from (1)

result children in classes of 1 teacher to 40 children no support ... interesting idea apostrophe

As a teacher I'd rather have a smaller class than a pay rise

and increasing my class from 30 to 40 is a step backwards

go figure

I would agree with most of hellywobs list.

Most importantly small class size, mostly about 20 to a class and never more than 24.

A full time TA in every class, all day.
SN children to be properly catered for and have their own TA if necessary (extra to the class TA).

Lots of play in the infants and I would get rid of the rigid Sept 1st date.

Nurturing groups for those who need help in socialisation and anger management.

More male teachers-right down to infant and reception classes.

More outside-getting hands dirty-practical work.

Getting DCs to think for themselves.

Stop the SATs and ban the league tables.

Let teachers make professional decisions about the DCs in their class, teach the individual and not expect them all to jump through the same educational hoop at the same time.

Have lots of reading and story telling for the pure fun of it.

Once at secondary school take different routes and value the practical and technical as well as academic. For those that are not academic teach real skills, e.g cookery not food technolgy, woodworking skills not design.
Raise the self esteem of teenagers who are set up to fail-find something that they are good at and build on it.

Don't expect all DCs to do the same exam system.