is a school allowed to do this?

[nonreligiousmummy]

My 2 children go to a CofE school. I have no choice in this because it is the only school we can get to. I am very unreligious (sorry) but obviously being a CofE school they have religious stories. I hate this but know that unless I change schools (impossible) I have to put up with it. If I had my way they would not be taught religious studies.

The thing I am happy about is the fact that ds has come home from school on two different occasions now, and said that they were taken to church that day. We (the parents) had no letter or anything to tell us that this would be happening or to ask our permission. Can the school do this? Just take our kids off like that without us knowing? I think its a bit out of order. I don't know what to do. Thanks.

i have quite a lot of sympathy with aloha's and caligula's arguments in areas where there are only religious schools. however, i have less sympathy where community schools also exist, but get less good results. it seems to me that in some cases the prejudice (and yes i have chosen that word carefully) against religion is so strong that people literally cannot stomach the fact that faith based schools get better results.

as far as whether the state should fund faith based schools, maybe not, but let's not get rid of them until we've learned to do the same magic in ordinary community based schools - otherwise everyone loses.

I also would rather not be in a position to have to say, "darling, your teacher is talking crap'. I don't think that's a good idea at all.

Well there were lots of things (not all 'religious') that my parents 'corrected' me on at home. I actually think it's GOOD if we can tell our children that actually teachers aren't ALWAYS right and sometimes they believe things we don't, or that they may tell us the wrong things (shock horror). When I was in senior school some of the teachers I had the MOST respect for were those I did often question (or even correct ) about things.

I shall encourage mine to conform to basic decency in human behaviour, but not to follow a pack

Perhaps YOU should have paid more attention in RE at school. You'll find that no 2 Christians (and probably Muslims, Jews and Sikhs) believe and follow EXACTLY the same as each other. One of the lovely things about 'my' religion is that we're free to have our own intepretation. There are many aspects of Christianity which DH and I disagree one - but we're both commited Christians - we're certainly not following any 'pack'.

nonreligiousmummy -- buried in among all of this...

(a) they do need your permission but it's almost certainly covered by some general permission you've already given (buried in the small print, as it were)

(b) you can ask for your children to be excused from religious activities if you want, even at a CofE school -- so you can probably sort this out very simply

oh, the organised parents argument. well, being organised at least doesn't cost anything (in money terms), unlike moving to the catchment area of a good community school and then patting oneself on the back for sticking to principles and sending kids to the nearest school!

aloha, don't worry i am not that offended, having gone round this one with you a few times before! hope ds and dd are well

But BK, your argument is like saying "let's keep private schools, because if we get rid of them, no-one will be able to buy a good education, and at least some people are able to buy a good education at the moment, which is much fairer than everyone having a crap education".

I don't buy that. A school which discriminates on intake on any basis, is not a school which taxpayer's money should be supporting.

But I disagree with the state funding of religious schools as well, on the basis that the state should simply not be funding children being taught a fiercely contested opinion as if it were the truth, and then allowing those schools who do this to exclude children whose parents don't go along with this fiercely contested opinion.

Well our local CoE primary has one Ba'hai pupil, 3 (maybe 4 not sure) Muslims (pracitising) and 1 Sikh (it's only a small school - about 150 pupils in total - in a predominantly white catchment area). I don't here any of their parents complaing that their children is being taught a 'fiercely contest opinion as if it were the truth' - indeed the parent of the Ba'hai pupil visited the school last week to give a talk to the children about her belief, to tell them about the Ba'hai new year and even taught them a Ba'hai song............did any of the 'non' Ba'hai parents ie the rest of the school complain? Not ONE

caligula, the issue is not the same because you don't "buy" the education with money and because these schools achieve results without academic selection. faith based schools in terribly deprived areas do wonderfully well - with ethnically and socially diverse backgrounds. that's got to be something that's worth preserving, completely unlike private education.

i'm not in favour of people pretending to be religious to get into these schools, but at least pretending to be religious doesn't cost you anything - the poorest person can pretend as well as the richest!

I can understand people objecting to the existence of all religious schools on principle -- it's not a viewpoint I agree with, but there's a sound intellectual argument for it.

What I don't get is this argument regarding discrimination in admissions. Surely (a) if you are non-religious you wouldn't want your child to go to a religious school anyway; (b) if RE makes up 10% of the curriculum in religious schools then that approximates to the church's contribution to these schools -- these kids would still have to receive the rest of their education at the taxpayer's expense even in the absence of religious schools; and (c) there are always going to be state-funded schools that some children don't qualify to go to, eg. boys' or girls' only schools, welsh-language schools etc.

Well Gwenick, that's partly why I don't understand it. If no two followers of a religion think the same way (ie everyone is free to think what they like) what's the point of any religion?

The point is we have the same 'basic' beliefs - ie Jesus was God's son, died on the cross, rose again, died for our sins. etc etc. For many relgious people it's about 'how' you live your live - and the bible is a lot of books put together, Methodist believe the same as the Anglicans - but they think alcohol is wrong.

I think the best way "I" can explain it (someone like MP will probably do it much better). It's like a school when you had to write book reviews. You all had the same book to write about, but you all came up with different 'intepretations' of it. The basic story of course had to be the same. But how you viewed how it fitted together, and what was more 'important' that other bits varies with every person. So no two reviews will ever be 'exactly' the same (unless you cheated and copied your friend ) but the 'basis' is the same.

frogs, I thought I'd explained why I wanted my DS to go to the local c of e school - because it is round the corner and it is small. The fact that it was c of e was irrelevant to me. I don't care if they teach him about Jesus dying on the cross or Mohammed and Khadija, or Buddha under the tree, or even about their results. I just wanted him to go to the nearest school and the other nearest school (which is "academic") was enormous with an instantly dislikable New Labour headmistress who spoke glowingly about SATS and the National Curriculum and talked with approval about the fact that 4 year olds were not allowed mid-morning snacks because they made too much mess.

so what's the worst that can happen if your child studies religion, learns about Christ or goes to a church? What is the scary part part about that? Just wondering. I realise this thread was about parents choice and beliefs and dont want their kids "indoctrinated". Fair enough. But what is the worst that can happen? There is faith and then there is religion. As it goes I too am "unreligious" and dont want my kids biting the alter rails. But faith is an entirely different matter. I know this is a personal question religiousmommy but would you mind if your children adopted faith in a "God"? In my own life (and i hope for my son) it is and will be a beautiful thing.

If, as was said earlier, most RC believers
don't agree with the Pope's stance on some
pretty fundamental issues - why bother to call
themselves Roman Catholics?

Well this is a bit OT but anyway -

Contraception and homosexuality aren't 'fundamental issues'. They aren't mentioned in the creed or in the Mass or in the religious Litrugy or in prayers. Furthermore, they aren't even issues of belief. The positions as they stand have been developed very recently (in the last 40 years), and they have never been classfied as "infalliable" teachings (btw Fact Buffs: strangely, it is Ratzinger who is credited with persuading Paul VI NOT to make the contraception edict infallible).

Being a Catholic is about being part of one of the largest and oldest spiritual bodies on earth - it is about knowing that whereever you are on the planet you will be able to walk into a church and be welcomed, be able to celebrate the liturgy and participate in the wonderful and mysterious rituals of the Eucharist - that you share the beliefs in the wonder of creation and the reasons for your existence with 1 billion other human beings. It's about sharing a massive ancient cultural and spiritual legacy with all these people who are alive now on earth and who have gone before you and who will come after you - all who are continually seeking the truth on the same path as you. It's about making the sign of the cross and feeling like you've come home. It's about celebrating baptism, communion, marriage and death and knowing that there is meaning and order and purpose to life and knowing that you have a place in the universe.

It's not about condoms and your opinion on gay people, and anyone who thinks it is doesn't understand the first thing about what it means to belong to the Catholic church.

I do think some of you are thinking here in terms of your own urban experiences when talking about nrm having a choice in sending her kids to a C of E school. I grew up in an area where there just wasn't non C of E education - all the local village primaries were VA, and to get to a non religous school you had to travel 10 miles to the nearest town (45 minutes in rush hour traffic). That would mean that yours were the only kids in the village who didn't go to the local school, leaving them effectively friendless outside of school. Not really much choice.

Having said that - the religion practised in these schools was "Christianity -lite" the vicar was often in school, but rarely spoke about God. And the services (Christmas/Easter/Harvest) were seen more as an opportunity to show off the school choir than to worship. I think the church in rural areas recognises that attendance at it's schools is not because parents subscribe to it's religious values and are more used to them asking to "opt-out" though I would urge nrm to think before taking this option, as it does segregate children from their friends. In my primary school we had 2 sikh kids who were kept out of religious stuff, and felt very left out during our preparations

Excellent post, morningprayer.

Wow, have actually sat and read through everything that happened after 6pm yesterday!

Just wanted to answer a question from MP buried in there... I wasn't at a church school, but I did go to Sunday School every week when I was about 8/9/10 .

I even did bible study exams in the summer (got 99% once).

Did I get convinced that Christianity was the truth? No. Not at all, I always had my doubts and my own sort of swirly abouty beliefs. My parents taught us right and wrong, not religion.

And now, after my years of sunday school (and even the odd church service with school), I got the internet, and discovered that my own natural beliefs had a name!! I am a pagan pure and simple.

Boy went to a Catholic school, with mass and nuns, and now doesn't do religion - I think he doesn't know what he believes.

So, although I wasn't at a church school, I did have some religious instruction, and was still left with the ability to think for myself !

To those who do the festivals even though they are not christian, based on the idea that they are pagan festivals... do you tell your children that they are celebrating Yule and Ostara, or are they still Christmas and Easter? Do you tell them about the birth of the God, and about Oestre, or just not mention anything and say "we have a pretty tree at this time of year because thats what we do"? Not trying to flame, genuinely intrigued.

We have both Easter and Ostara, Christmas and Yule, so that she gets to experience both of her parent's faiths.

' loons outside the vatican' - what a vindictive and spiteful little comment.

Tis a little... just because you don't share the "loons" beliefs, there is no need to belittle them

quite. How is it possible to have a reasoned argument with someone who calls religious people ' loons' ?!!!! talk about prejudice....

Chill out - aloha was expressing an opinion and she has every right to do so.

Or do we all have to censor our own terminology for fear of insulting someone?

I can guarantee that practically every day the word ?witch? will be used on Mumsnet, 99% of the time in a derogatory fashion. Personally I find its common usage far more vindictive and spiteful than anything I have seen on this thread. Shall I start jumping up and down and screaming ?insult??

Think it was just the way it was said - like no sane person could possibly believe it. I didn't quite understand it, but it still seemed a bit of a harsh term.

I have friends apologise to me (of their own accord, not me demanding)if they say things like "evil witch" in front of me