School Appeal with Infant Class Size Prejudice - any tips

[xfabba]

Hello. My son wasn't allocated any of the three preference schools we listed for Reception places this year. We are appealing for the first and second choice schools. All are full so I am assuming the councils reason will be cited as infant class size prejudice - i.e that even though we have some suspicions that the distance wasn't calculated correctly (ground B) and that theer are some facts that I believe meet the unreasonable criteria (ground A), it will be extremely difficult to win an appeal becasue they won't want to take the class sizes above 30 (necessitating extra teachers etc).

ANy hint or tips to maximise our slim chances? All the advice I have had so far says we whould get fact and figures like how much square metre space ther is per child in the school, how the distance was actually measured etc etc , but I don't understand how I can get this information in advance of the appeal.

think i may need some help, winestein, I'm getting a bit confused! I thought the class size prejudice argument was about the maximum allowed size of an infant class?
For my preferred school, the admission limit for reception is 22. I am assuming that the admission authority will argue that they can't admit more than this because it will increase the size of the 'infant class' (i.e. nursery+reception) to more than 30.

Nursery doesn't count Squeezy. Under the School Admissions Code Nurseries MUST have etheir own seperate published admission arrangements (chapter 2.66) Find out the admission arrangements (i.e. the PUBLISHED - this is very important) numbers the school said they could accept in both Nursery and Reception as individual classes - not added together to make 30.

It may be that they published 22 for reception and 8 for nursery but find out if that is what they published. Did you keep all the information they sent you with the application pack? It's in there. If not, request a copy (or see if it's on the internet) They HAVE to provide you with it.

any tips winestein? I am looking for a loophole for infant class size appeal but can't find anything technically or procedurely wrong I don't think - just loads of "unreasonable".

Did you manage to get the information on how the distance has been measured, and most importantly to what point? There's an argument based on the point if they have not been very specific. You do, however, need to measure the distance and then find out the distance of the last person admitted - if they are still closer than you you have no case on these grounds as your son wouldn't have got a place if they had applied the rules correctly IYSWIM. GIS systems are extrememly accurate - your only hope is that they haven't defined your address correctly OR they have not been very specific as to the point measured to.

To get all this information, all you need to do is phone the Admissions Authority (as opposed to the LEA). Their tel number should be on the letter that came with the reasons for not giving you your choices.

Reading what you have said, "others" seem to have been given a place before your son on "distance" which is a higher priority - that then must be your argument. I'm not entirely clear about a few things you said here though - it looks like your best chance. Phone the Admissions Authority - befriend the person on the phone and find out whwat is meant by "others". You can then base your appeal on the fact that the "department has not followed it's own published arrangements" if you still feel "others" have been given a place in advance of distance to school.

Unreasonableness - I can't see how you could argue that one. I have used it in my appeal, but my circumstances are totally different!

So, I would suggest two courses for you. 1/Investigate the points measured to and from. Find out where the point is measured to... this should be published. There are ways to argue this if there is a hole in it.
2/Clarify the schools published admissions arrangements. The fact that another school to which you didn't apply is closer to you is irrelevant so don't get bogged down with that!

Do you want a copy of my appeal report? Apparently the layout is very much appreciated by appeals panels. I can also supply you with info on how to conduct yourself in appeals and what not to do/say! Email me if you like.. woman at the-boozer dot com (substituting at and dot and removing spaces of course!)

I'd just like to say, some of my previous message does not read well/make sense. In my defence Milud, I have been up since 5 with a certain young man for whom I can't wait full time school to start!!!!!

Hi there hope you got some sleep! I sent you an email.

I asked the LEA these questions:

1. What is the GIS the ONLINE system that is used to calculate distance for school applications based on (name of system).
2. What is it's published margin of error?
3. What was our distance to the school measured as?
4. What was the distance to the school measured as for the last child to have been allocated a place under category 4 of the published admissions policy "Children for whom the school is the nearest"
5. What was the distance to the school measured as for the last child to have been allocated a place under category 5 of the published admissions policy "Other"
6. Are there any children who were allocated a place under category 4 "Children for whom the school is the nearest" who live further from the school than the distance calculated for us.

For these admission criteria:

The distance used to be measured using roads and pathways. Last year they changed it to as the crow flies. The stated admission criteria are:
1.Looked after children.
2.Exceptional arrangements.
3.Siblings.
4.Children for whom the school is the nearest to their home.
5.Others. (Distance I presume)

And got this answer:

There is no published margin of error for the GIS SMART online system, it is based upon the Ordnance Survey mapping system. We input the post code and the house number, and it goes from the centre of the house to the closest school gate available to use. The school gate information was provided from the schools themselves.

The distance from your home address to SCHOOL APPEALING FOR is 1.358 km.

The furthest distance offered was to 0.744km of Category 5 for SCHOOL APPEALING FOR.

People from Category 4 'closest school' would be admitted before children from category 5, regardless of the distance.

Other than she wouldn't answer my last - Are there any children who were allocated a place under category 4 "Children for whom the school is the nearest" who live further from the school than the distance calculated for us - I am not sure I can find anything procedurely wrong with this, what do you think? The debate is whether he would have got in if he had still qualified as his nearest school but even then, they changed the rules, tough luck I guess.

Hi all,

It's a shame so many people have to appeal for their chosen school. I have an appeal on 20th May and I've never known stress like this!!

I applied for my daughter to attend the same school as my son, he is in year 1. We live 0.23 miles from the school, we walk everyday and both the children attended the nursery unit. Unfortunately I sent in my preference form 7 days late. Although I alerted the Headteacher, LA and head of schools the LA would only consider my application as a late one.

When allocating the places the LA had 30 applicants, allocated 30 places. they did not apply any criteria and only 12 children live within catchment. I am appealing on the basis that the LA was irresponsible in not considering my application in the first round considering I alerted it to my error!

How much of a chance do you think I have?

All the very best to everyone else that has to appeal!!

Siobhan

TBH don't really fancy your chances Shuvva - if your local authority is anything like mine they state very clearly in the admissions booklet that late applications will only be considered after those received by the deadline.
But at least you are top of the waiting list - so if there's any movement at all you will be in.

Been and looked at the admissions limit info for my preferred school - the published admission limit is 22 for reception and 16 for nursery (i.e. 8 for mornings and 8 for afternoons).
do the appeal panel have any leeway with published admission limits that are less the maximum of 30?. or is it the case that reaching published admission limit=full?

From what I understand Squeezy, you can try to dispute that they are full as your argument is not based on class size prejudice. There's an official document I found the other day on setting capacity - I can't for the life of me find it now - and through that you can dispute their numbers stating that they have capacity for more children (if they have made alterations etc since calculating the number) given they have set a number under 30.

I think it's also worth checking if they have had larger numbers previously (i.e. precedent set) and also the total number of children in the school and the total number of teachers (the term "teacher" IS defined and includes far more than you might think). Find out the published admissions limits for all years and then simply divide. My argument would be that if the total number of pupils divided by the total number of teachers is less than published admissions numbers then they do have capacity.

I need to join a thread!!
I am going round and round in circles, positive one minute and in the doldrums the next about the appeal procedure.
Sqeezielouisie - our circumstances are very similar (edge of 2 local authorities, having to drive past "dd's schoool etc to get to the allocated one)

I have received a map today and distances from our house to the school and also the distance of the furthest pupil who was allocated.
The map I have received uses a path I did not even know existed (having lived here all my life)and basically sends me North when I need to be going South. The road I drive down when going anywhere South has apparently been deemed unsuitable for walking to school route. Map ignores another footpath which goes South.

The worst thing is I feel I should have put something on the application about dd's social difficulties. I did let her down

winestein please can I ask where you get the info about teacher numbers etc?
xfabba I'm impressed with your list of questions I e-mailed our LA about the system and route over a week ago and am still waiting for a reply!
I supose a ack of response to any questions will only help my appeal.....
Squeezy it sounds like your LA can't argue infant class size prejudice if so that will help you hugely, the only other thing I read is that if LA sets a lower admission number you have to object to the schools adjudicator the year before which seems totally unfair to me you don't even know that you need to object yet if you don't you can't win when you do.

I need to call the schools adjudicator about something else so will try and ask them (if they will even talk to parents)

is everyone 100% sure that the LA can't use the infant class size prejudice argument?
If you take the definition literally 'a class where the majority of children will be 5, 6 or 7 before the end of the school year' it does appear that a combined nursery and reception class would fit into this. Do you think I should get legal advice about this?

update on our situation: I thought we were going to move up the waiting list as I'd heard about someone who had moved out of the area handing their place back. One of my friends (her son is in nursery class with DS)is at the top the list - she phoned the LA to be told that another family had moved in over easter hols, because the school had room for their older child in Year 1, their reception age child jumped to the top of the list via the sibling rule and got the vacated place! (what makes it worse is that they are not even in the catchment area, they are closer to other schools). Feel like we just can't win....

This has happenned to us too. My son has gone 1 further down the list due to a family moving in closer.

We had our appeal on Friday and it has been adjourned as I bombarded them with so much info the freaked out LEA guy wanted to go away and "fact check" - sure we will lose eventually like everyone but it was nice to rattle them and give them some work to do for a change ........

Seems to me like Infant Class Size appeals are a waste of time. We are going to try but can't see that we have a hope of winning. We have one child in an "out-of-catchment" school (cathcment school was rated 4 in last ofsted) and cannot get our second one in because it is oversubscribed. I don't see how the LA can get away with encouraging you to choose a school for your first child and then telling you that there's no room for your others?? Goodness knows what will happen to our third one in a couple of years time? The LA have suggested we move our oldest out, which we quickly declined, apparently there are loads of spaces at our catchment school (seemingly because no one else wants to go there!).

We are on the waiting list for our preferred school but are currently being shifted down at a rate of knots by people within the catchment who missed the deadline.

If its any use I got some good advice from ace-ed.org.uk. They are a charity to help parents with educational issues. Their phones were very busy but worth persevering.

Hope you get things sorted out.

I think you're right sadly. It is just a numbers game and, in most places, trying to shoehorn too many into too few places.

The whole parental choice system is, imo, insulting as they (patronisingly) tell you - make sure you go and vist all the schools and read their ofsted reports and think very carefully about which schools to choose when, in actual fact, that has bugger all relevance on anything as they make the decision based purely on spaces, siblings, distance - so your research is completely irrelevant.

I spent a lot of time last year visitiing schools, talking to other parents, reading ofsted reports and my sone was not allocated any of his preference schools - what was the point? (other to know when they are fobbing you off with a failing school)

Has anyone had any success with an appeal based on the 'infant class size prejudice'? I'm moving to a totally new area, got a house and so know i'm in catchment (100 metres away). There's been in errors, distance is correct so theoretically if I'd applied before the deadline I'm sure i'd have got in but because it's an in-year application due to house move all the places have gone. Is it a lost case or worth it anyway?

You could tell your LA that you intend to Home Educate your child. Then your child is taken off the role of the allocated school. Once the admmissions "round" is over (eg the appeals have all been heard) you can then decide to reinstate the child, and under the "Fair Access Protocols" (read about this in the Admissions Code (DCSF web site) your child will have to be put into a school closest to your home - the only problem is that if you have a school that is a "reasonable distance" from your home with spaces - then you will get offered a place there.

Exceptions to the infant class size rule are "children who come to the area outside of the normal admissions round" etc.

The exceptions are

When a child moves into an area outside the normal admissions round and there is no other school or class in the school under 30, which would provide suitable education within a reasonable distance of his or her home

children with statements of special educational needs who are admitted to the school outside the normal admissions round;

children admitted after the initial allocation of places because the person responsible for making the decision recognizes that an error was made in implementing the school?s admission arrangements and a place ought to have been offered;

looked after children admitted outside the normal admissions round;

children admitted where an independent appeal panel upholds an appeal on the grounds that the child would have been offered a place if the admission arrangements had been properly implemented, and/or the admission authority?s decision to refuse a place was not one which a reasonable admission authority would have made;

children who are registered pupils at special schools and who, by arrangement with another school which is not a special school, receive part of their education at that other school;

children with special educational needs who are registered pupils at a school which is not a special school and are normally educated in a special educational needs unit attached to that school, and attend an infant class in the mainstream school (i.e. not in the unit) where this has been deemed as beneficial to the child.

In the first three of these cases the class may only be above 30 for that school year or the remainder of the school year.

I know I might be jumping on the badd wagon of a discussion that has finished but my appeal is on wednesay.

My son has not been offered a place even with a sibling in the school - we are out of catchment but on top of waiting list, no error with distance appears to have been made.

The class size is 25 and they are stating prejudice of class size,m even though the legal limits are 30. The school role is only 171 and the total that can be admitted is 175.

The school he has been admitted to is the local school but both schools are around 15mins away via speeding car, so I feasibly cannot get both children to school on time.

Also my son has been given a special needs school action plus plan and will be given initially five hrs per week extra. He doesn't adapt to change and believes he's going to school with his sister, I haven't the heart to tell him he isn't.

but now am quite disheartened by everyone's posts and don't think he'll get in through appeal and there are three other appeals as well as mine!

Any thoughts? I am not sure what or how to say may case in the hearing, if any one has advice please I'd love it.

Thanks

Not a waste of time at all appealing. We did two on this basis and got in on the second occasion. Brief summary of our experience if you have time to read it. Sorry if this is a bit long and rambling, but I hope some will be of use. I've itemised points to make it kiss of a block of text.

DD was 4 in May 2004 and we moved house - after having arranged school place in catchment of old house. (Got the school place in March, only saw the house in April - what can you do?)... After the move, we applied to transfer to the new school, a small villagey one with 210 pupils, one class per year - and were turned down on the basis that the class was full. However, we knew that there were 32 in y1, so 2 had got in on appeal. We appealed in Dec 2004. Meeting at the Town Hall - panel, head, LEA rep, us - and were rejected.

So DD had to go to the inappropriate school (awkwardly-timed bus ride, wrong area) for two terms from Jan 05. It was a real pain.

If I had to sum up what went wrong with the first appeal I'd say we didn't have enough information to hand and the panel (three men) simply weren't convinced enough by us.

We appealed again, asap (Oct 2005). Same set-up again - three panel members (this time two women and one man) , LEA, head, and us - and this time the head had brought the head of governors along to back up her case.

My feelings immediately afterwards, summed up in an email to a friend at the time:
"One of the panel at least appeared to be on our side, but it's difficult to know about the other two. We pressed home every single point (we were in there over an hour!) but [head] gave very long, waffly answers which often led the panel away from the questions I was asking.
I repeated again and again that I think the school and LEA are trying to have it both ways - they are arguing class size prejudice at KS1 on the numbers the LEA quoted (31+32+30=93) but arguing round the need to appoint another teacher by using the staggered Reception intake to argue that they are currently meeting the letter of the law regarding numbers (12+32+30=74). As I kept saying, they can't have their cake and eat it. Either numbers are over (93) in which case they need another teacher, or they are under (74) in which case there is room for our daughter within the provisions they are currently making. [Head] kept trying to lead the panel with her "intention" to get the number in y1 down to 30 by Christmas, which we had to keep insisting was speculation and could not be considered by the panel. The legal clerk there confirmed this and reminded the panel they could not consider this as evidence. problem is, once someone has heard something they can't 'unhear' it. I'm afraid I haven't come away from this with a very high opinion of [head], who is being extremely devious by bending the numbers rules, nor of [governor], who sat there like a lemon and contributed nothing of note!"

Anyway - this time, we won. I think the numbers thing swung it. We were on top of the figures, we knew what we were doing. We had the DfES documents on admissions and appeals and we quoted the relevant bits. We'd done our research on the inconvenience of the transport to the other school. We were clear which criteria we were challenging on. We paid a solicitor to look over our argument. We questioned every point made by the LEA and the school and we were in there over an hour - in fact I think almost 90 minutes. In short, we made right royal nuisances of ourselves to get what WE wanted. (Oh - and at one point DW turned on the tears a little! Shameless, but worth doing!!)

DD started at her new school in the middle of the first Y1 term in Oct 2005. She's been very happy there. The head (who's now moved on) and I developed a grudging respect, and I was quite pleased to know that someone was now on our side who was prepared to fight her corner with such tenacity!!

Hope that all helps.
Good luck.

Wacgirl,

How much supporting evidence have you submitted?

Have you got support from ed psych, paediatrician or similar?

If you have this info and it supports the content of your appeal statement (I sent a copy of my appeal statement to the people I wanted support from so they knew exactly what my ground were), and go for the class size stuff first, quoting space etc., any potential discrpancies in documentation e.g. my LA stated door-to-door measurement as the crow flies in the booklet, but actually measures using the GIS system - I pointed out how hard this info was to verify. Then I moved onto the 'unreasonable' grounds of my son's social/medical needs, which all my supporting evidence pointed to.

Technically because I didn't submit all the supporting evidence when I applied, it shouldn't have had any bearing, BUT once the panel have read it, they have it in their heads and would find it hard not to have it in mind.

We did get the appeal granted on the 'unreasonable' criteria (see my post from Saturday) but we really didn;t expect to win. I think the supporting evidence from three members of LA staff, including their own head of educational psychology, and a well respected local consultant paediatrician really helped our case, and validated our arguments and our credibility. Three of our four supporters quoted difficulty with change, expectactions of following siblings to local school etc. and I think it helped.

Very good luck to you. This may be useful to read about the process, as is the DCSF's code for appeals. Try to use key words - I used 'unreasonable' quite alot in my little speech.
www.schoolappeals.org.uk/downloads/digest.pdf

Waiting to hear from the HT now, once the LEA inform him of the panel's decision. I'm assuming he won't be delighted to have to have DS4 in as an 'excepted child' making the class 31. There were also several appeals for the same school after ours on the day (around 6 or 7 I think)

Hello-

Good Luck to everyone appealing. I have my appeal this coming friday. My son has been attending the local RC nursery, for 15 months now. The numbers have been cut to 30 from 45, so many children have missed out.

My son was 31st on the list. I don't think we will win our appeal, but if I don't do it I'll never know what the outcome could have been.
The school has 12 classes, and 12 teachers.

From this september there will be 11 classes-so they have a spare classroom-however the head states this is used during the day, and there will be 2 teachers and one nursery nurse for the 30 reception children.

We are still waiting to find out which school he will be attending, we have been told we should be allocated a place at an RC school 4 miles away, which would mean 8 buses a day.

A new school is opening 2011/2012 and it doesn't state how big that will be.

The school is next to our local city hospital and there has been an influx of workers coming from indian and the philippines who are Roman Catholic. Apparently the head has had to turn away many catholic familys. Surely it makes sense to keep the pan at 45 when there is the demand for catholic education.

It would seem so. With 12 classrooms they've got enough space. By reducing the PAN they are ultimately going to reduce the school's funding. However, this is a matter for the governors. It may be this has been forced on them if, for example, they've not had 45 children to admit each year and they now don't have enough funding. Unfortunately this won't help you at appeal. The panel can't change the PAN or tell the school how to organise its classes.

Hi, we applied for out two children (4) &(7) to start RC school in September 2012, we are currently living in Christchurch NZ and were home at Christmas and took the children along to look at the school, the Head told us to let them know sooner rather than later(not that the cut off date was the following week). We returned to NZ to think about the move and finally decided in March that we would make the move back home, i emailed the school and did not get a response and then discovered the whole process of applying to the local authority etc. I sent in the application forms and hoped we could be considered for a place but as we were late we were classed as late applicants. Anyway they have both been rejected due to class sizes and we are going to appeal, i have been told that our eldest child will more than likely get into the school on appeal but as our daughter is going into infant class then this is a bit more tricky, i am hoping they will consider our difficult circumstances in that the children have been through all the earthquakes here, were baptised catholic as babies (not just to get into school), i have also heard that the 30 that have got into the reception class are unlikely to be all catholics, i just wondered if anyone else had similar expriences with catholic schools?

You would be better off starting your own thread rather than resurrecting an old one. However...

Your daughter's appeal will be heard under infant class size rules. That means you should only win your appeal if you can show a mistake has been made. As you applied well after the deadline that is unlikely. The fact that some of the children admitted may not be Catholic is irrelevant, as are your circumstances. You may be lucky and get a sympathetic appeal panel that will decide to admit but you should work on the assumption that your appeal will fail.

The chances of a successful appeal for your older child are better but it is by no means certain that you will win. You need to make out as strong a case as possible as to why your child will be disadvantaged if not admitted to this school.