Faith Primary - is there any point appealing?

[happyheathen]

Our first choice and closest school is a voluntary aided C of E primary.
Its abridged criteria are as follows:

1. Children attending church 1 and living in parishes A B and C or their siblings.
2. Children attending churches 2 or 3 and living in parishes A B and C or their siblings.
3. Siblings.
4. Children living in parish A
5. Others

Church attendance is defined as at least twice a month for at least a year prior to application.

My child falls with category 4 and has failed to gain a place. Although we attend Church A we only attend the family service once a month and did not lie. In other years children in category 4 have got in. We are top of category 4, in fact we are so close to the school I think if it had been done on catchment we would certainly be in the top 5 of places.

My issues with what has happened are as follows:

1. I KNOW other people have lied about their church attendance. I know of at least one case where someone was told to cast their mind back and see if they could "remember" some dates prior to the start date that they put on the application form as it didn't meet the qualifying period and so submitted a letter after the application date to that effect. This was the vicar's idea.

1. It was strongly suggested at church services that parents of pre-school children in the congregation might like to complete a direct debit form. We refused on principle. I would like the LEA to look at how many of those people who got a church reference also did the Direct Debit - I bet it's all of them. Even more interesting would be how many churchgoers who failed to get a vicar's reference (like us) had not completed one.

1. Oversubscription this year was mainly caused by a high number of siblings. However, many of these siblings no longer live within parishes A B or C or even the wider area. It is not fair that people can move away from the area and still be considered above those living next door to the school. I do not think that it is unreasonable to say that if you move house and are no longer in the area (I cannot say catchment because this concept doesn't seem to exist for this school) you should either move schools or take the risk that later children may not get in.

1. All I want to be able to do is walk my children to school.

Environmentally it is insane to prevent people walking to their local schools and forcing them to drive to other schools as we will be forced to do. Parking at the faith school is already a huge issue. It is gridlock outside our house and I have had to ask people to move off my drive a number of times. The school I will be driving to is the catchment school for the vast majority of those people parking outside my house.

But I know faith schools are a law unto themselves so is there any point in appealing - the criteria suck but they will say they can set what they like and they have abided by them.

Is this a lost cause ?

wrt point 3, this is the case for most non-faith schools as well siblings get places even where the family has clearly moved since the eldest child started school. Not much you can do about that it's not fair, but them's the rules.

Wrt 2, why did you not get a priest's reference if you attend church?

The criteria for a reference is attendance 2xmth for 1 year. We have attended 1xmth for 18 mths. I should have lied, I realise that now but at the time I thought we wouldn't need to and was uncomfortable doing so. However, I have now realised that very many other people lied. I know that the church will say they can't help that and if people don't tell the truth then what can they do but, as my example shows, if your face fits they are only too happy to help you change your paperwork to fit the criteria.

To be honest, I was interested in the idea on another appeals thread of my child being disadvantaged by the church failing to adequately verify that the criteria have been met. When I raised my concerns with the admissions office they said that it had all been very rigorous because they even asked some people to go back and check their calendars and confirm which days they had attended services . So basically they self certified themselves.
I KNOW people who have lied. I could even name them. I just can't prove it and that is very frustrating. But as far as I am concerned they cannot prove that those people qualified under their criteria either.

It's tricky. Don't think you'd be able to prove it, tbh. Do you know where you are on the waiting list?

ah, so they want 24 visits before you are graciously permitted to offer up your child sacrifice, and you have only been 18 times?

System clearly stinks but not sure what you can do.

The vicar gets people to lie on their application forms and tries to get money out parents? Nice.

out of parents

(Is there a shaft of sunlight that magically appears the 24th time a child attends a service, while a booming voice intones 'you, my child, tell your mother to go out and buy a St Whoever's tie'?)

I'm pretty sure that for our LEA, siblings who live out of catchment come below children without siblings who live in catchment. In fact I know children not allocated a place for that reason. No help I'm afraid though to the OP. Sorry.

Edam - I don't think the 24th service is the critical moment (I don't actually believe that that many children actually do the full 24). I believe the booming voice is triggered on the 12th BACS transfer to the church account.

MrsMattie - we attended a service where we were told that the church was very aware as to why we were there and that every year the church pews were swollen by parents with pre-schoolers and that they knew very well why that might be but the church cost money to run dontcha know, heating and the like for all those little pre-schoolers and so it was our duty to give back a little and fill in a direct debit form that had handily been placed inside everyone's hynmbook.
I know lots of people took the hint and filled one out. Indeed various people urged us to do the same as then our names would be known and on the list as good congregation members.

I thought this sort of thing was against the rules/illegal but I am not sure exactly how. I'm sure stuff about indirectly making people pay for state school places breaches some rules but it's all a bit vague in my mind.

Do I just have to accept that this is what goes on at faith schools?

DH is RC, I am not. I went through a brief period of attending the local RC church when DH got a bee in his bonnet about our son attending the local RC school - and yes, we found things depressingly similar. They crow barred money out of parishioners in the most underhand, guilt-trippy way and ranted on and on about attendance every week being the only way to secure a school place. The whole thing was horrible, forced and false and it was cringey to watch people falling over themselves to kiss Father Miserable Features' arse in the hope of getting a place.

It completely put me off faith schooling (wasn't keen in the first place, to be honest!).

You have been honest and above board. It's a shame the whole system isn't the same.

No idea whether the money thing is usual for church schools but our local Methodist church has been in trouble for strong-arming money out of elderly people for a rebuilding project.

Makes you wonder if anyone involved has actually read that bit in the Gospels about JC throwing the money-lenders out of the Temple...

Goodness, it isn't like that at my dc's rc school. Dd1's secondary school do ask for money a lot, but are perfectly fine with the people who don't give any (that'll be us, then).

Wrt primary school, I have never heard any kind of talk from the pulpit about school places, tbh, parish and school are run separately tho the PP is on the board of governors (not on the admissions committee tho).

There is a CoE school near us tho' whose linked parish church are known for taking a register at masses or whatever they call it, which always makes me snort -- so schooly.

Yes, I have been honest but fat lot of good it has done me and now I feel like a mug and worst of all that I have let my child down.
I think we are 4 or 5 on the waiting list but those above us are siblings (albeit ones who have moved away and so are now well out of catchment) and so if there is any movement in places they will snaffle them.
I really can't see 4 places being relinquished . There is added pressure this year because of the crunch - it's an affluent middle class area and lots of people have decided to go the highly regarded state route rather than pay private. Obviously the Good Lord provided them all with crystal balls when they started attending church in September 2007 as they claim they did (when the economy was still booming).

Complain to the Bishop?

I work at a faith school and I am afraid it you do have to jump through the hoops. I also know lots of families who cheated - lied about where they live or rented and didnt move in - but then the system sucks and if parents are made to jump, then jump they normally will.

What do you mean when you say you failed to get a vicars reference.Do you mean that you asked him and he refused ? Were you instructed to get a reference on the apllication form ?

Sorry have read your post more carefully now.

As far as I can see as you have not attended twice per month then you would be in catagory 4 however long you have been attending .
Also if you are only going once a month how do yiou know that other families are not going on the weeks you didn't ?
Also you don't know what the content of the vicars letter was.Maybe there were extenuating circumstances.I knew a child who got in to a nearby faith school on vicars reference but didn't attend church at all because his mother was ill and housebound

Ask th eschool and the Local Authority if they have done an equality impact Asssesment on their admissions policy. They are required to by law. Here is an example of one www.wiltshire.gov.uk/jobs-and-careers/equalities/equality-and-diversity/dce-equality-impact-assessme nt-a158-school-admissions.htm

drosophilia - yes they have completed one. Just found it online.
It says "The Local authority has exerted local influence whereby some church schools give priority for admission to local children...". However, this has not happened in the case of my local church school.

I think this is likely to happen at our oversubscribed rc school this year too.

One of the criteria is attendance at church group albeit no defined number of days.

I am hopeful for dd as she has her brother there already (fingers crossed).
They only changed the criteria of siblings out of catchment area this year having priority over those in catchment.
I understand your reasons for thinking this unfair but i cannot see how a parent can get there children to two differing schools if they didn't do this ?
How do you know the other parents lied about church attendance if you weren' there though?

I know people lied about church attendance because (a) I have other friends who did attend more regularly than us who can confirm that those people weren't at the services they attended either and (b) because some people admitted that they hadn't really fulfilled the criteria and were worried that the vicar would catch them out.

What do you think of the school you have been allocated?

I agree its unfair but i guess the risk you took when applying to a faith school was not 'to jump through the hoops'. Sorry - thats not much help to you now and for what its worth i think you did the right thing.

Fingers crossed you get in on appeal - assuming its still the type of school you want your child to go to.

The whole thing stinks. Sorry, not much help but feel the need to express my disgust.

Could we get some sort of mumsnet petition together to change the law on admissions criteria?

Hope you get somewhere with the appeal.

All those people who attend church just to get their child into a faith school - do they stop going once their child is offered a place?

Was the direct debit they requested to the school or to the church? There was recently an item on the news about schools breaking rules by asking parents to pay and then giving them priority on admissions. I think this might be where you could appeal.