waldorf steiner

[heninthemidden]

hi,

anyone had good experience of waldorf steiner education system?

Barking, you can introduce who you like.
I still had no answer as to why children got sent to SW schools by WC's. I think its irresponsible. Especially since you all seem intelligent people!
I can see a new cult emerging the 'WC cult'
Or has it emerged allready?

Maria raises a good question that I've been considering; what is the right place or approach for the SWE festivals/rituals?

My understanding of the Michaelmas ritual, the crown and sword, is that each child is crowned (thus empowered) to go forth and do battle with dragons (the sword.) What dragons?

One could consider the dragon to be the devil, Ahriman, or some other spiritual entity. Non-secular, in my opinion. Of course, the dragon could also represent ignorance, oppression, poverty, racism or injustice. Then you have a picture of children being tasked with fighting the injustices in the world. I would consider the second approach to be secular, and I like the picture. I suppose my ideal situation would be for the ritual to be conducted with an open intent such that each child with their family could define what a dragon might be. Again, the secular approach.

What does the advent spiral mean to people who have experienced it? Do non-spiritual parents see any value in festivals or rituals at all?

As far as anthroposophy being a religion . . . I think it's different things to different people, thus hard to pin down. From a religious aspect, in my experience it is essentially christian with strong roots in hermetic and rosicrucian traditions, with a touch of the scholastic. I believe that much of what Steiner presented had already been covered by the rosicrucians or the theosophists. Again, not every anthropop might agree with me.

I do think Caty has a point in that it's a bit unreasonable to suggest that SWE schools attempt to hide their connection to Steiner. But perhaps that's not what is being suggested.

Manatee - I'm very shy about giving any specific info about my connections. I'm currently a parent, and hold a couple of trusteeships in Steiner and Steiner-inspired initiatives. I converse often with friends and colleagues who agree that the anthroposophical society is more of a hinderance than a help. I further believe that anyone can take the education framework suggested by Steiner as a starting point for an inspiring educational paradigm without magically turning into an anthroposophist (talk about woo!)

Hi,

I would just like to crash this thread and thank you all for keeping me entertained/informed during my insomnia. I live quite close to a Steiner school and was half a mind to look at it for my LOs. I didn't realise they are not as 'open minded' as I thought. I know people who have sent their kids there and they've just seemed a bit hippy. The beliefs may be mad IMO, but it's the secretive nature that has now made me dismiss it as an option.

Thanks!

Niknak - hello there. As long as their beliefs are not like this
Good luck with your insomnia.

Thanks for great posts Maria33 and Aldertree thecaty I have to disagree vehemently with this-
"Barking, with Steiner you get what it says on the tin"
and certainly this-
"Steiner said many times how glad he is that all the texts can be read by anyone and I think he would not have wanted to exclude you or any other Waldorf Critic."

both sound like some kind of line spun by Steiner waldorf.
Steiner actually said , quite often, the complete opposite. He said that things in the schools depended on external appearances, and he was well aware that giving away too much would "annoy" people. There are numerous quotes to substantiate this, from the "verses" which are really prayers, to more general things about the true nature of the schools, and they weren't there to prepare children academically.

There are plenty of examples today too, of teachers being told , in training and at the schools, not to give things away to parents, or that parents aren't "ready to understand".

Apparently some teachers too, are in the dark. One teacher contributing to a blog last month, appeared to have not even read any work by Steiner; unless of course he was being disingenious.

zazizoma - you say so many intelligent and enlightened things, I only hope what you believe and wish could happen.
As to anthroposophical interpretations taking on a much broader palate, I wonder...
Most schools in Uk come under the umbrella of the Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship- ( they sponsor the Hereford academy too I think). I'm sure I've said this before, but in a small paragraph, under FAQ, is the question What is anthroposphy? The answer is this
"Anthroposophy is a philosophy based on the work of Dr Rudolf Steiner and this philosophy underpins the ethos of a Steiner school. However, anthroposophy itself is never taught to the students."
Underpinning the ethos sounds pretty conclusive to me. You can't have Steiner schools without it.

In a rather more alarming post on a blog, their communications officer said personally he'd like more anthros teaching in the schools.

As to the opning up of interpretation- your description of, for instance, what the dragon represents. The huge problem I had with any of tanthro belief was precisely that they weren't talking about metaphors! For them, it is a "science"- Atlantis, spirit worlds, angels, gnomes etc were real. And I think this is the stumbling block when it comes to ideas of interpretaion within anthroposphy.

I've had online discussions with someone who claimed to be a long standing anthro, and said there was a lot of discord and discussion at the centre around "disclosure" etc.

I suspect it's very hard to recruit teachers-
it always was at the school ours were - and even harder to find anthro ones, or those who take on board the beliefs in their entirity, so to survive, they will have few choices.

The schools don't hide the connection to steiner, btw- but they set him up as a scientist and educator, rarely if ever mentioning anthroposophy, reincarnation etc. The language they use is actually quite cunning, easily interpreted if one knows about anthroposophy.

I'm going to sign out of this one soon as the extremes of views are rather entrenched. So here's my final views:
We have two children - one when through State very well and is thriving in post-graduate education. That worked.
Our other child didn't thrive and is now at a Steiner school (after much research, including OFSTED inspectors and senior teachers for other schools - we didn't just talk to Stenier parents/teachers)and she is thriving. She wasn't a bully in her previous school and has kept many of her friends from her previous school. All those who have known her have commented on how positive the changes in her have been.
So, for me it has worked TO DATE. Who knows what will happen in the future but at present she stays and enjoys her school, her friends and her learning.

Isenhart You are a moron of the highest order. I AM a parent, and as Wilderduck so kindly pointed out, I DO post on other threads on MN, in fact, I thought this one had died out as it had dropped off my 'I'm on' list, but nope, that was just due to my posting on so many other threads!

Zazizoma thanks you for saying a bit about your connections, and I think that you have a good attitude about it to be a trustee.

I always liked the Advent Spiral, until this last year. We had to leave early to help a friend who's car had run out of petrol, but I am pleased I did leave early, because it was apparently a huge mess of stressed teachers. It was only for kg children, with the class one after. and when a class one boy walked in with his dad, they were apparently told to leave immediately! Which is crazy, because no harm would have been done for them to quietly sneak in, but I hear it created a rather tense atmosphere after that! It was the first (and will now be the only) year that dd did the spiral on her own, and I am glad she did that.

I did not know about the Michealmas sword and crown at all, and we have had 3 years of Michaelmas with a child in kg, and more being in toddlers (we used to make the bread into a dragon shape in toddlers to mark the occasion!) so that is a bit strange, like why NOT tell us!

Anyway, we have been at the party of a Steiner friend of dd today, it was very nice. I saw a friend of mine who is doing the Steiner course, but has taken her son out of the school we were at, as the classes are absolutely shambolic, people are paying for a lack of education, with teachers who are still in Steiner training, and who lose their temper at the suggestion they are not managing a special needs child appropriatly.

At the school ours were, the advent spiral was a major major event.
There was shock and horror once when we didn't go.
When one knows what it represents to anthroposophists, it's easy to see why it's so important to them.

I was under the impression that the spiral represented the incarnating spiral, and that it was a kind of representation of the child's path into the world, which, I was ok with...is there more to it???

MANATEEequineOHARA
this old thread has some explanations about the advent spiral

Oh boy... that was some thread...almost exactly a year ago.... spooky I was very very cross at that point....

Thanks Northern, I am putting the kids to bed before I start reading into the 41 pages though, (a sure sign of controversy within...?)

Northern, your quote about anthro underpining the ethos of the Steiner school is found, as you said on the SWSF page. This is one organisation in the diverse global movement of SWE. It certainly does not speak for my perspective.

I hope that the people who are frustrated (furious) with the SWSF and many of the English Steiner schools can understand that these entities do not necessarily define SWE. The people who are teaching and founding schools and parents having these discussions also have a voice in the definition. Call me an anarchist, but I've always been very cautious about whom I allow to serve as an authority.

I also disagree with your statement (I think it was yours) that SWE is the educational arm of the anthro society. I believe at one point the American counterpart to SWSF attempted to trademark the Steiner/Waldof label so that no school could call themselves a SWE school without their approval. I don't believe they were successful, and anyhow, one could always use the Steiner-inspired tag or drop the name completely and run with the curriculum.

Perhaps this is simply my American attitude, but I'd like very much to see less passivity and more positive action on the part of disgruntled British parents. To say we can't do so because the SWSF and some die-hard anthropops wouldn't like it is a cop-out. It's also a bit circular to say that Steiner was nuts then use a statement of his to support your argument.

In short, there are some absolutely wonderful elements of the Steiner curriculum. Whether you think it dumb luck that Steiner came up with them or whether you think he was on to something, these ideas are yours to do with as you wish.

The SW Fellowship in England has to endorse Steiner Schools, before they can be called Steiner Schools. The one we left was only 'endorsed' about 3 years ago and before that it has a different name and described itself as 'Steiner influenced'. It was much better back then!

Maria - I'd like to respond to your suggestion of the three years per teacher. I've seen some very damaging eight-year teacher/class relationships and some fabulous ones. For me the best scenario is a wait and see approach, where the teacher stays with the students as long as it seems to be working. Yes, this raises questions about what 'working' means and who would ultimately decide that it wasn't. Still.

We keep our children for life, and don't change them up every few years. I don't see that an eight-year relationship with a single class teacher is necessarily too long. That being said if the dynamics have ground to a halt and everyone is frustrated, then it certainly behoves everyone to take a look and see what type of intervention may be required.

Yes, I also agree that times have changed and that children come into contact with many more people today. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing, and the added stability of a single class teacher may be helpful.

I find the perspective that it's the student's karma to get this teacher and this class and therefore must stick it out no matter what to be base and inhuman. But I also believe in the transformative power of a long and purposeful process. I think every situation is unique and should be judged accordingly.

Can you tell us zazizoma which elements of the Steiner curriculum you think are absolutely wonderful? And which don't exist in other education systems?

I am still astonished by how much I learn on threads like the above.

Zazizoma, you said: " I find the perspective that it's the student's karma to get this teacher and this class and therefore must stick it out no matter what to be base and inhuman. But I also believe in the transformative power of a long and purposeful process"

The transformative power of a long and purposeful process??? What the hell do you mean by that? And where do the children fit into the equation??

You appear to speak with a new voice, I wonder are you trying to rebrand anthroposophy? To make it more palatable for the next generation of Cultural Creatives?

Yes, Barking. I remember one boy so angry with the experiment imposed on him at Steiner school that he broke his teacher's nose! I rather liked the teacher myself but that's beside the point. The point is that the children themselves disappear here in a sea of psycho-babble. Zazizoma - With the best will in the world a 'wait and see approach, where the teacher stays with the students as long as it seems to be working..' is as vague as the phrase 'the transformative power of a long and purposeful process' which could mean... anything you like. Seems to be working for whom? And who says it's working?

I agree, there may well be something positive in continuity in education: possibly a tutorial or mentoring role lasting longer than a year in secondary school, or smaller units within larger schools supporting children in otherwise impersonal settings. Research for this approach has been favourable. But I'm not convinced the emotional or dare I say it academic benefits of 8 years with one teacher justify the discomfort of so many. I know what my dc's several ex-Steiner friends say, even if they were lucky enough to like their class teachers. They feel cheated.

It's great to acknowledge how base and inhuman that idea of karma really is. That's a start at least.

Hello again, no time to post properly, but just reading 1st reply from my last read.

NorthernIs that a joke?? Or are the Yanks really bonkers? Sorry sleep deprivation makes it hard to work out difference. Also the wierd thing is I was born in Hereford and although haven't lived there for 18 yrs am shocked they have such a big school planned in the area. I wonder if the residents are aware of the type of school it is. I can't believe the can get planning for
a) such a big school in a tiny village in the countryside, what happened to greenbelt?
b)such a non PC type of school.

Going to try and read and catch up now before 2 small children need attending to

sorry wilderduck.....

barking and wilder - who told you parenting was straightforward and easy? It's always a question of deciding whether or not holding a boundary or schedule is still beneficial or beginning to be oppressive. Deciding whether an experience is harmful or presents a challenge that could lead to growth and learning. I think a parent practices the art of discernment daily. What makes you think dc's education should be any different? There is no formulae, and an approach that works this month may need to modified the next.

Are you two saying you've never experienced a process whereby working through a conflict has left everyone stronger and wiser? Perhaps not.

And wilder, please don't rearrange my words to say something I didn't say. I'm not criticising a belief in karma per se, but the self-righteous application whereby one would say "suffering is this person's karma therefore I will do nothing to alleviate their pain." This is the attitude I find deplorable, and which some anthropops even apply to individuals suffering from cancer.

northern - I was interested in your own interpretation of the advent spiral, not Steiner's. You seem to be as restricted in your opinions as a dogmatic anthro in that you quote Steiner all the time instead of speaking about your own experiences and ideas.

Do you really believe that because someone thinks the double spiral represents the zodiac cancer that something scary will happen to children if they walk that form? What if someone believed that a straight line represents the phallic and that walking in a straight line reaffirms the dominance off men over women? Would you start walking in a zigzag? What if a zigzag represented for someone . . .

I'm impressed by your flexibility to change with you LOs, I can't do change easily

Niknak - I also had to look sideways at the Onion before realizing that yes, everything in it is a joke and sometimes a pretty good one... especially to us damn rationalists Let no one say those Yanks have no irony!

Argh, no more straight lines for me! Oh hang on, I shall just believe that walking straight reinforces my clear determination of my path in life.

I suppose it does not matter how it is interpreted if it works for you, but if some schools take this 'beginning of the Ayrian era' thing too seriously I would not want my kids involved. I think and really hope, that the school we were at did NOT take that seriously and THAT was the reason it was never mentioned, certainly everyone was told and was under the impression it was a representation of incarnation, which was fine. With regards to the 'era' thing, does anyone know why it was then done at advent? I know that it was important for the school to do it on a certain day, (last Monday in November or something like that). I just thought it fitted with the general festivals of light that happen at that time of year. (am I being terribly naive!?)