all of my friends send their dcs to private schools and i am feeling the pressure

[beforesunrise]

this is a badly titled post, i know. but basically i am looking at schools for my dd and i just realised i basically do not know anyone who sends their kids to state schools. i am considering what to do, not anti private per se, although a big financial commitment for us. However i do feel that state should be the default option but i am completely bemused by the lack of any experience in my friends and neighbours that i could draw on. although well-off, we are not rich, and neither are our friends, but we do live in central london where state schools aren't great by reputation or results.

i almost feel as though if we decide to send her to a state school we'll be completely on our own. i am desperate to meet other parents and i am coming across as increasingly mad, to the point of asking people at bus stops etc what schools their dcs go to

i am visiting ALL the local schools, state, faith, and independents, to try and make up my mind... hard though...

i know there are millions of posts on the topic of private education but i am wondering if anyone else has been in this position, and what have you done?

Well David Cameron and Gordon Brown use state schools (assume they are not in your NCT group!!).

I would ignore what your friends are doing and see all types of school for yourself. If you are church going and have a faith school near by it might be a good option. I don't live in London so don't have specific info but I expect there are some good primary schools. It appears to be harder to find good state schools for secondary in London so maybe you could save your pennies for that.

However if you can afford private all the way and have a nice private school nearby you could go for it.

Am sure plenty of London mums will come on and give you good advice. The only thing I would say is don't just choose a school because your friends are doing so. I knew quite a few people at the school my DS is at. A couple have now emigrated and others have moved away. So you can not be sure they will stay.

You and your DCs have to live with your choice of education for them, so you really have to make the decision completely independently, factoring in what you can afford, your principles / values, and what's best for your kids.

Many of my neighbours and friends send their children to private schools. We have opted for our small, friendly local state primary. Children make friends wherever they go, and you will too, if you just chill out a bit.

Don't make the mistake of thinking throwing money at your child's education is the only way of ensuring they get on well at school. Investigate all your options and make up your own mind.

You have to remember that children are individuals and that different schools suit different children - if that is not too bleeding obvious.

This is a decision about your child - not your friends. It is too important for you to factor in peer pressure.
Go and look at the schools - taking your DD whenever possible and choose a school ( as best you can) to suit and supprt her!
I have three Dcs in three different schools for various reasons - but they are each extraordinarily happy.
I lost a friend because I sent DD to an independent girls school but I don't regret it. Every other child that DD loved from nursey is still afriend - regardless of where they have gobe to school.
If a friendship is genuine then different school choices won't alter that a lot.

My DDs are at a state primary school. Small village school we are mostly very happy with. DD1 is in year 5 so by this time next year we will have had to make a decision regarding secondary school.

We live an area where the secondary schools are large and in my opinion not that good.
I am not impressed by the general appearance and attitude of the pupils as they walk around town and having been to the school with the primary children for sports activities was not impressed once inside either!

I was educated in a state Grammar school as was my husband and that would be a great option for DD1 except there are no state Grammars in this area! We only moved 2 years ago to our dream house in a lovely village within 25 mins driving distance to the city. We really do not want to move.

So, private is the best option for us. I have been to see 2 independent schools in the city and will visit another in a few weeks. I loved one of them. Of course, it is a big financial commitment, we have another DD in Year 2 and are considering havinganother baby! We are comfortable financially my DH has a great job and I do not have to work. Although, we can afford school fees it would still be a lot of money to us.

I will go and have a look at the local school but I have really decided it is not for us. Of my friends, most have chosen to use state primary schools but quite a few use or are looking at private school for secondary! Although it is not an option for a quite a few too!

Well, there you go, my experience ( although I would not have told you all that if we met at a bus stop )

It is hard trying to make the right choice, I should add that I trained as a primary school teacher and worked in both private and state primary schools. A good state primary is as good as a private school. Although perhaps with larger classes and less equipment! I think you have to make the right choice for your child regardless of your friends choices. Good Luck

We live in West London. Most of our friends send their children private, we have sent ours to state schools eventhough money is not an issue for us. I think unless spend a lot of money and go for the top private schools or the state schools in your area are particularly awful, I don't actually think you get that much return on your money from sending your children to private schools.

Have you visited the schools yet? To be honest if you see a few then you will quickly get a feel as to what is available and how they differ. Don't worry about what your friends have done - every family is different and you need to look at what suits you and your children.

In a nutshell could someone tell me why the state schools in London are regarded so badly.
Are they really that bad?

Before looking at all the schools you should check the admissions criteria - most of the state schools go on distance so if you're not near enough you won't get in

likewise faith - you need to be practicing the appropriate one and at the right church for the school

We have two independent schools on our doorstep, which we walk past to go to a state primary. We could afford the private schools, but do not want the financial pressure, and we know that our children's school offers a good quality education.

My children seem to have chosen friends from a rather similar background to us, which I have not engineered (honestly!) - I very rarely have children home for tea. I do not know why this is, but it is also the experience of friends of mine who have chosen other state schools.

I am now coming to the very frightening point of selecting a secondary school for my dd1. Last summer, I was on a bus when a group of children who looked about 12 got on. They were so well behaved, and I was so tempted to ask them what school they attended. If they had an adult with them I would have, but asking questions to unaccompanied children seemed a little odd, so I held back.

thanks everybody. just to clarify- i don't want to do what everybody else is doing just because that's what everybody else is doing, i really am not like that and in fact i think the level of agony over this decision is largely due to the fact that i am trying really hard to "do the right thing" regardless of social pressure.

it isn't just social pressure though. it is also the fact that you make your choices based on (among other things) the input of your peer group, who can offer first hand experience etc. and there simply isn't anyone who can offer me this first hand experience of state schools. of course i am visiting them all (also the ones i have no chance of getting, just to be able to see what a "great state school" looks like), but it would still be nice to meet someone who could tell me : 'yes, my dc go to that school, and we are happy, they are happy, they are getting a good education and building strong friendships'. I am simply not sure i would have the courage to choose a school absent this type of input...

ggirl, there are some that have poor results because they have a high proportion of children from families that are really struggling emotionally, financially and organisationally. Some have a high proportion of kids who don't speak english at home which is obviously a complicating factor, some also have what is referred to as 'high pupil mobility', ie lots of dc moving in and out of the school at points other than standard entry and exit, which obviously is also complicating and potentially disruptive. Some London schools have difficulty recruiting and (especially) retaining good teachers because (a) working under these circs can be highly challenging and (b) the cost of living in london makes it difficult for staff to afford long-term accommodation.

BUT none of this in itself makes a bad school.

I think the main things to consider in choosing are (a) that you like the head and the atmosphere of the place and (b) there is a sufficiently mixed intake that your child has a chance of finding some other dc that they will get on with.

Honestly sunrise, there are loads of good primary schools in London, and they're not all church schools. Some are very fashionable with m/c parents, some are less so (but maybe equally good or indeed better in terms of the things that matter). Go and look. Bear in mind that people who are paying upwards of £10k a year for their reception/nursery age dc to learn how to write their names and read Biff and Chip (which tbh you could teach at home in a couple of afternoons a week) are going to be somewhat resistant to accepting that actually much of what they're paying for could be got for free on the state. Bear in mind also that the facilities in state schools will almost certainly be less glitzy, and lower on swanky extracurricular gimmicks like Mandarin classes -- these things really don't matter that much.

Also, ask yourself where you fall on the pushy/laidback spectrum. If the idea of your 4yo being sent home with lists of spellings to practise every night appeals, and you are likely to get v. jumpy if your child is not at least 6 months ahead of his peers, then many state schools may not do it for you. Ditto if you are very pfb and shudder in horror at the thought of your little one sharing classroom space with kids who have no.2 crops and a diamond earstud. A horror of slightly bobbly sweatshirts and greying polotops might be a contraindication also.

If, on the other hand, you love the idea that your child is not under constant pressure, that the staff have huge confidence and optimism in your dc's ability to achieve without constant pushing, if you like the thought that the uniform is pretty minimalist and can be bought very cheaply in Tescos (insert 2 min silence for the late-lamented Woolies here) then come on in!

PS -- loads of MNers live in London, you might want to search the archives for the schools you're considering, or even post to see if anyone has experience of them. And yes, lots of us have degrees and even a taste for Orla Kiely.

Fret not. Go with your instinct and ignore what other people are doing.

beforesunrise, what part of london are you looking for a school in?

ditto to what Frogs says. We could afford private and are in a part of london where the default position for some is private (as one woman, who I didn't even know, put it "nobody goes to x" the school her house overlooks. Hmm really, nobody, yet I see hundreds of pupils come out every day). Anyway, we went to see a couple of private schools and our local, not particularly highly regarded, state and lo, the one with the most space, best head, nicest atmosphere, was the latter. I can't think why anybody would go private for primary unless they had very compelling reasons. And even if you know no one who's going to state schools, if you go to one, you soon will do (maybe too many!)

frogs- you do have a knack for words, thanks though i hasten to add that, although i have a few degrees, i have no orla kiely!

sunshine, i am in the borough of camden

Well, in Camden you're spoilt for choice. Seriously, there are state schools that people turn down private schools for. And both the local state schools that my dc were in have had kids come in at non-standard entry points who were taken out of private and sent to primary schools instead, and not for financial reasons.

If you don't know anyone who uses them, that's just because you haven't met them yet. Seriously, go hang out outside Eleanor Palmer at chucking out time, it's mini-Boden central down there. Admittedly you have to live next door to get in (or maybe a tent in the playground just to be on the safe side) but from what I hear that's not the only Camden school to have serious pulling power.

I have no Orla Kiely either, sadly, but there's quite a bit of it about.

but that's the thing frogs.. there's a handful of highly desirable schools in Camden, where you need to live next door, then there's a handful of very sought after church schools, where you have to live next door and attend the church attached, and then there's lots of schools which are deserted by the middle classes and while they are often very nice with committed teachers etc but they have so many problems and issues and i am surrounded by the latter category. am at the border with Brent and Westminster, if you can picture what i am talking about...

frogs i have seen your orla kiely bag .

I can sort of picture it, you're way over the other side of the heath from us.

Assuming you're okay with the principle of state schools (!), then really there's no substitute for checking them out and going with the vibe. Some unfashionable schools are great, and some aren't. My dc are at a less-fashionable school that is surrounded by some very fashionable schools that we're not quite close enough to, or have the wrong religion for. Their school is great, as it happens -- lovely mix, really nice atmosphere, and dd2's reception teacher is so fab that truly I would pay good money to have my child taught by her. There are less good teachers, and quite a lot of kids who are definitely not middle-class, academically able or particularly well-behaved. But plenty that are as well, and I find the mix rather cheery, both wrt the kids and the parents. It's not at all aspirational, and I'm quite glad not to be surrounded by the kind of parents who queue up at 4am (or send their nannies to queue, anecdotally) to get their 5yo into the gymnastics club at the talacre centre. No one does suzuki violin at my dc's school either, which is a relief also.

But all in all it depends on the individual schools, and how sensitive your parental anxiety-ometer is. I'm on dc no 3, so mine has ceased functioning, really. Even so mine have all learnt to read and write, to eat with a knife and fork and are at least at the same academic level as their privately-educated cousins.

Horses for courses, really.

I gave it to my sister, hc. Decided that OK wasn't really my bag, as it were. Too bloody much of it around. Humph.

How are things in your unfashionable end of the woods?

thanks frogs. you are really helping me putting things into perspective. if only i knew sensible people like you in RL! I am 100% ok with the principle of state schools, just trying to get comfortable with the reality. and of course we are talking about my PFB so anxiety-ometer off the scale really...

i have heard of people sending their nannies to queue at 4am at swiss cottage, too... and i swore i'll never do it. in fact, my dd does NO extracurricular activities at all, because i cannot see the point...

ps if you are bored with OK, may I suggest you take a look at these

they are very nice, well made and designed by two local mums- who are probably mnetters...

Ooh, I've bookmarked those bags, they are nice!

Hoxtonchick seems to have disappeared back into RL, but she also has a PFB at a less-fashionable school in East London, and in fact turned down a place at the uber-fashionable one when it became available. And in fact I went to see an ultra-desirable secondary school with ds in the autumn (the place Tony Blair sent his kids) and we hated, really hated it. Which is a bummer considering ds would probably get a place there, but better to know beforehand.

The other thing to remember is that there is a lot of mobility in the london school population, even in sought-after schools and even in private ones, whatever they would have you believe. Places come up all the time, so if 18 months down the line you really feel it isn't working, there are always alternatives.

Would an alternative be to send them to a state school and then use a private tutor to help them along in those area where they might be struggling?

This has got to be the cheapest option but still ensuring that they get a good education?

am back! yes, ds is at (our very local) state community school in hackney, definitely up & coming rather than uber trendy. but such a lovely place, & he's so happy.

the head is fabulous & has her 2 girls in the school which i think says a lot. there is a fantastic happy, achieving vibe at the school & loads of opportunities. ds (year 2) is learning french in class & has had LTA tennis coaching. great range of after school clubs. it's also a small school, 1 class per year, so everyone knows everyone. it's certainly not a middle class bastion & all the better for that.

ok, will stop now, am over-enthusing a bit .

all good here thanks frogs. we're having floors sanded this week & decorating. eek. am focussing on the finished product.... hope you're all ok.

beforesunrise, if I'm correct on london borough boundaries then you are near west hampstead / kilburn.
I would bet my bottom euro that the sort of schools frogs describes do exist there and that there are Mnetters who send their dc there.

These types of schools are not particularly obvious to outsiders so you really need inside knowledge. If you were to stand outside my dc's school at 3.15pm you would not necessarily think it was great, but its full of a great mix of kids and parents from all walks of life from the unemployed to barristers (admitedly only one of the latter that I know).

I suggest you find out the names of the potential good ones and then put a new post out asking for opinions - but pay much more attention to the opinions of those who actually send their dc there.