Applying for Primary School

[pie]

My DD is due to start Primary School in January 2004. I have her down for 3 schools, all of which are non demominational state schools. Quite literally at the end of our road, 20 yards away is a Catholic primary school that performs well in the league tables and which more importantly for my DD to of her best friends already attend its nursery class and will be moving up to reception next year.

We are non practicing Buddhists, and I don't have any moral objections to sending her to a Catholic school.

What I wanted to know is if there are any legal rights I would have if I wanted to send her there and the school objected on the grounds of religion. Weird I know, but my sister, also Buddhist, went to a CofE school and they had a certain (very small) quota of children they had to take in that were of other religions. I think it was about 5%

I would like to know before I apply in case they try to put me of.

I hope this is making sense!!

pie, in your position I would just ring the school and ask what their policy is on taking non-Catholics (no need to be specific). There is a very good Catholic school in my town and I think that they will take non-Catholics, but only if their intake isn't filled by Catholics. I don't think they have an actual quota and I don't think normal appeals procedures apply.

If they say they may take your daughter it would be a good idea also to find out what they do about the non-Catholic children during assembly and RE lessons - do they have to take part? If not, what do they do instead?

Hope I'm not offending anyone here but I would be cautious about sending a non-catholic child to a Catholic School. They do tend to perform well in the league tables (as do many church schools) but I wouldn't send my DS to one because I don't want him being told he's going to go to hell if he's not a Catholic, which he isn't!

Even if your child doesn't attend the specifically religious elements of the schooling, all the teaching will probably have a Catholic context, if not a bias.

I probably sound like a raving Paisleyite so I should point out that I have no religious faith at all (brought up vaguely C of E, now actively atheist), and this is only my opinion based on what I know of Catholicism, and through discussions with friends who were educated by nuns and marked for life by the experience!

It's an issue close to my heart since I'm going through the same process with my ds, and good state schools are hard to find (and get into) so I do sympathise.

Shelia, thats something I hadn't considered. As I said my sister went to a CofE school, but they're not so heavy on the fire and brimstone are they?

Out of 26 schools in my borough only 10 are non-denominational, more than half of these are on the otherside of the borough. 3 have catchment areas, which I am outside of. So that leaves 2, one of which is right at the very bottom of the league table.

This is giving my DH even more ammunition for the lets move to the USA campaign, he is from upstate New York.

Pie, I'd agree about checking direct with the school in question. I am not sure of the reasons, but Catholic schools are usually stricter than C of E about admitting non-faith pupils. I know that many C of E schools do have a percentage quota for children of different/no faith. Round where we live, the well-performing Catholic primary and secondary schools are all hugely oversubscribed and will not even consider applicants from outside the faith.
I do also agree with Sheila's point about it possibly being confusing or even distressing for a child to be in a school where they are made to feel different because of their faith. I'm C of E, have Catholic friends and family, but would not send my child to a Catholic school, even if the choice were there, because I think the doctrinal differences would be too much to manage.
It must be very annoying for parents when for whatever reason denominational schools outnumber secular state provision in their area. I am a supporter of denominational education but not to the detriment of a decent local choice for families.

Having been to a Catholic school (as a catholic) I can unfortunately confirm that a buddhist would have been seen as very exotic, and definitely an outsider. I remember that we had one non-Catholic teacher (a very good one incidently) who was regarded with a degree of suspicion as he was CofE. I certainly can't remember any non-catholic kids.

There is usually a close tie with a Catholic school and the local Catholic church, and I look back on my childhood amazed at how much time was taken up by preparation for sacraments (first communion, first confession, confirmation). And it was the practice at that time to "reward" those children who had just made this sacrament with some form of school trip - any who had not made that step were left behind (happened to me, because I had skipped a year on transferring schools and was too young to be confirmed). If you do go for the Catholic school then I would definitely find out what the school and church policies are. And I would probably look for a quota that was higher than 5% - I wouldn't want to take the risk of my child being the only "outsider" in a class.

Things may be different in other locations - both of my schools had a predominantly Irish influence, with most children being 1st or 2nd generation immigrants. The Irish branch of the Catholic Church seems to be less tolerant of other faiths IMO.

pie,

I am surprised that you haven't already had to commit to a place at a particular school as I would have thought that, Appeals aside, most areas would have allocated their places by now, if not before Christmas, for 2003/4 entry both September and January, including the private sector.

For the Catholic school it probably depends on how they are funded and whether they can thereby apply their own selection criteria (giving priority to practising Catholics for example) and demand for places. You could always contact your LEA or the school secretary for a prospectus which should clarify this.

hth

I'm v confused on this one. We plan to move to a different county before dd1 starts school - she's at pre-school at the moment and loves it. What happens when you move area? We're fortunate in that we could pay for private education if we wanted to (I'm sure there's a debate elsewhere on pros and cons of state v private - if you're lucky enought to have that choice and whether you should support the state system - my dh and I disagree) however, the two private schools are completely full and the state schools vary massively. We won't know which one we'd be able to get dd1 into until we do move - dependent on the postcode and not sure when we're moving as just lost the house we wanted. Sorry to ramble but does anyone else have experience of this as I'm aware I'm leaving it all horribly late. Dd1 is four in October.

I don't know really but I would have thought it might not be such a strong emphasis now with the National Cirriculum. Also my sister (Methodist) teaches in a Catholic school and it doesn't appear to be unusual.

LIZS - All the nondenominational schools make a decision in May for Sept 2003 and October for 2004 in my borough. So I am well within the dates for an October decision.

I have to say that I would not have got any forms in at all if a very good friend hadn't run around and got the applications whilst I was in hospital and in bed with my terrible pregnancy!

Sorry if I hijacked the thread - do realise it's really about Pie's question. I went to a convent and CoEs did attend - my bf being one. She loved it. Another good friend was a Hindu who also enjoyed the school despite being surrounded by nuns. However, v small, friendly school - and (for Catholics) reasonably tolerant. I'm Catholic.

sykes, no need to apologise!

As you said you won't know exactly which one until you make the move. But if my application process is anything to go by your DD, being four in October will be up for the Sept 2004 intake, so you would need to probably apply by March 2004 to the state schools. Hopefully you will have moved by then with time to sit down and think about this. I don't think you've left it late at all! You could always check with the schools in question about deadlines, but as every child has a right to a school place you will get her in somewhere, the problem in getting her into a school you like.

If I had the money I would certainly consider going private, but living in Kensington, London, private is VERY big money!!!

Pie, we lived in kensington a few years back with dd1, at the age when we were looking to put her down for primary school. Every school we wanted for her was a church school and voluntary aided, which meant they could set their own admission criteria. All of them wanted proof that we regularly attended the church they favoured, like a letter from the priest/vicar. The state schools I wasn't too keen on, except for one but we were out of their catchment area, so we were really stuck. We ended up moving out of London altogether before she started school, so we didn't have to make a decision in the end, but a friend of mine who had a son the same age (and was a buddhist)ended up attending a catholic church every week just to get her son into the school (that was in kensington too), because they wouldn't even consider her application otherwise.

lou33, I think I know which state school with catchment area you mean. I have my DD down for that one. Its were myself, brother and sister went, but back in the day it wasn't nearly so popular.

I also has a friend who attends church groups just so that she can get her son into a church school. It wouldn't be so hypocritical if she wasn't such a faithful agnosic who actually declared herself a Satanist when we were 16. Ok so I know that was probably a phase. But I personally cannot bring myself to go to those lengths. I think it is equally important to have some dignity as well as education!!!

I'm not overly concerned, my friend actually thinks I need to be more so, about what school DD finally gets into as I have faith in my own abilites to help her education. I come from a family of high academic achievers (each of us sent to local comprehensive) and education is something that was, and will be, actively encouraged.

I think that generally parents worry too much about schools providing ALL education when really it should be a joint project.

High academic achievers, but spelling has gone to pot with pregnancy, in fact brain rot has set in early this time. Having hypothyroidism doesn't help either!!!

Pie - I think you've made a really good point that education should be a 'joint' project between home & school; I am constantly amazed by parents (not on mumnset I hasten to add!) who moan continually about their child's school but do NOTHING to support the school or encourage better links, help their child at home etc etc. One friend said that she 'couldn't be bothered' to listen to her children read & certainly wouldn't write in the book that is sent home with the child every night - and I am not refering to a busy working mum with lots of children to look after. Equally, why do so few people get involved in the PTAs etc? Although my DS is only 2 we are already involved in the local, very good, village CofE school, supporting fund raising events etc - I have even been asked to be a governor!

Sorry for the rant - but this is one of pet subjects!

Following on Sykes post...
what happens if you move into an area in August with a child who is due to start school the very next month (September), and you haven't signed up for any schools beforehand. What I mean is, could all the local schools in the area say, "We're too full, too bad" and the LEA would insist that the child attend a school many, many miles away, that happened to still have places? What if all the schools in a particular town were "full"? I'm only interested in State schools, btw. I'm under the impression that the scenario I outlined really happens in Northampton, at GCSE level. I wondered about Primary level, too.

zebra

I've recently gone through an appeal to get a place for ds1 who is 4 in June. We are moving into the village in 2 weeks time. We had previously been refused a place as we were out of catchment in our present house. When I looked into it all there is something in the education act 1998 (which deals with admissions) which ensures that shcools can make exceptions to the school numbers rule on class sizes for pupils who move into catchment out of the normal admissions round. The LEA have a legal obligation to find you a school place within reasonable walking distance (ie under 4 miles safe walking distance for under 8s). If they can't, they have to pay travel costs which of course the lea want to avoid.

ACE help on admissions and appeals for parents and have a good website (I can't remember what it is though).

MOst religion schools don't thrust their religion at you anymore. Most, unless private, follow the National Curriculum and look at a whole range of religions. If you plan on sending your child to one though you sould be willing to follow their general ethos. I would go and visit the school and see what you think. Try not to pre-judge in advance - go with an open mind and I am sure you will know quite quickly if it the right place for your child.

As I understand it, how much a school can dictate its intake is determined by its status. Church schools are either "voluntarily aided" or "voluntarily controlled." The former can decide which children to admit and discriminate on the grounds of religion; the latter have no say, and must do as the LEA decides.

I have a Catholic school around the corner from me, but you have to show your baptism certificate to get in. Luckily the CofE school that DS1 attends is still well within walking distance and performs just as well as the Catholic one. As it happens DS1 is christened CofE but it wouldn't matter if he wasn't as the school is "voluntarily controlled."

Sorry to introduce a slightly different angle to this discussion:

I was impressed by Lindy's comment that education should be a 'joint project', but is not true (correct me if I'm wrong as this is the impression I've gathered by speaking to people in the Uk, but I have no direct knowledge) that in order to get into a good university to need to have come from a good secondary which again will take pupils only from the better primary schools etc etc?
Also some friends of mine have their children in a good COE school but they say that, if they want them to go to the local best secondary schools, they'll need private tuition fro the last 2 years.
Do you find this common? Or are they exaggerating, or maybe is a local thing?

webmum

I don't think it matters at all which school you attend with regard to university admissions as long as you are expected to achieve the required grades etc. Some courses/universities also expect to see a well rounded person with interests outside academia.

On the other points - as far as I understand it, schools can only refuse pupils on grounds of religion is all places are full. The admissions criteria runs something like, siblings at school, catchment, religion, distance from school, out of catchment in that order.

My dh and I are pretty adamantly atheist and as an American I feel pretty strongly that I don't want my children being "religious" when they should be learning reading and writing. Anyway I did quite a bit of research and decided that an International School was the way to go. Pie, are you "poor" enough to qualify for scholarships to private schools? I think that the Southbank International School has their main campus in your area and would be well worth looking into. I am going to send my ds to their Hampstead branch when he is old enough for their nursery. Also, if you are thinking about moving to the usa, the International Bacchalaureate (sp?) system is much more like the American system than the English schooling.

Pie, the only state school we were interested in while in Kensington was Fox, does it still have a good reputation? We were also interested in St Mary Abbots, but they wouldn't take dd because she hadn't been baptised, and we didn't attend church. Like you I refused to attend services just to get a school place. We moved not because we couldn't get a decent school for her, but she ended up attending a local state primary which was fairly good. We have moved again now though, because she is approaching 11, and although the primary school in our old area was ok, the high schools were most definitely not. Now she attends a c of e junior school, and will attend our local state high school, which also happens to be one of the government beacon schools. Dd2 attends the local infant c of e and will move up to the junior one in sept 2004.

Just a word about private schools and scholarships. Although the primary school where we lived was pretty good, dd1 was offered a scholarship to the only local private school, which we accepted. However scholarships don't generally cover the entire fee, in our case it was only 50%, which still leaves a good few thousand to find each year, not including dinner fees, uniforms (always double the cost when the word private is attached to the school), trips etc. A bursary could be worth looking into, as a percentage of the fees are paid on a sliding scale depending on what your income is,but for both options there are usually only a few given out by the school.

Dd1 loved her time at the private school, but we would not have been able to put the other 3 through it, and we did feel sometimes that although she deserved to be there, it did feel unfair that the others would not be given the same chance. Now they will all be able to attend the same schools and have the same start as each other.

sykes,

What often seems to happen in practise with the private schools is that people put the kids names on the list as a fall back in case they don't get the state school of their choice. If they then do, the waiting list can rapidly shorten in the months leading up to admission. Therefore it might be worth getting on the lists anyway. However if the school is especially popular then you,like us, might find that you can go down the list if siblings take priority, as well as up. We actually have a place at one school waiting for our dd in 2 yrs time but her brother, already 5, is still 10th on the list(would be 4th once he counted as a sibling!!).

Depending how close to either county you live you may be able to apply for state schools just over the border but obviously this would be a gamble if you do not yet know where you are moving to. At least you do have time to play with yet.