ds currently out of year (1 year behind chron. age, yr4 not yr 5). When we move will he be forced to change year group - kent/Sutton/Surrey. Anyone successfully fought?

[ErnestTheBavarian]

OK, so ds started school in Switzerland aged 7.

When we moved to Germany, we decided to put him in 1 year below as he has had 3 years less primary education than his British peers. Due to the late Swiss start, there is so much he's not learnt. Plus his birthday is end August. Oh, and up till recently he had never been educated in English, so age 9 is only just learning to write in English etc.

Both his class teacher, head teacher and dh and I are happy he is in the right place. He's also physically quite small, so is one of the smallest in the class, although the eldest.

We are now looking at moving back to UK next year (Spring 2010). If he stays as he is, he would go into Year 6 in September 2010.

If, however he is forced to go into his official cohort, he will have to start secondary school in September 2010. So he will only have had 3 years education, be the very youngest in the year, still learning to write etc in ENglish.

I phoned some grammar schools in Sutton & they all said absolutely not a problem for him to stay as he is, and start secondary school in 2011. So I was feeling heartened.

But just got snooty email from Kent CC saying he would have to rejoin cohort & start secondary school in 2010.

And obviously, if this is the case, we would miss the application deadline for the secondary school, as this is in October 2009, and we don't move till 2010, maybe even just weeks before the school start.

Can I challenge this. Educationally for many reasons, it just seems to be a ridiculous and totally unfair rule which doesn't take into account the different educational experience, circumstances or needs of my ds.The fact is he has missed 3 years of school, is already out of year, and all his school beleieve he is suited to where is is now.

Does anyone know these 3 LEAs? (maybe Sutton or Surrey are more flexbile?) or if I can challenge this or stand a chance of fighting a 'no' or else any other way around this situation?

Phew. long and waffly. sorry. thanks

you lot are great.

40&fab, I guess we're focussing on Grammars cos both dh and I went to grammars, and ds1 is bright and also pretty academic, ds2 is very bright (but not so academic), but hten he is youngers, so... I guess we both feel a grammar school would best suit him in every way, looking back to our experiences. His Head teacher is also firmly of the opinion he is "grammar school material".

It is really complicated though. Is it right, you get to apply for 3 schools. So what happens if you apply to 3 grammars, and he doesn't get into any of them? Or is applying for 3 grammars a foolish mistake that no one would consider making?

Thanks for infos on Greenshaw & Beacon schools. obviously we've not made any decisions yet, so will look into all options.

Regarding Primary schools, how on earth do you interpret the results - is the Value added figure good to go on, or the AGg score (whatever that means?) It's a minefield.

Will send dh off next weekend to have good sniff about and make sure he goes via Carshalton Beaches & South Sutton. But DH & sil have both taken piss out of me for my pronunciation of Sutton, so possible best to avoid or suffer years of ridicule.

Amey. will go through that site, thanks.

beagle, you are so kind - v. interested to hear what she says. I'm expecting to hear from Sutton lea today or tomorrow their verdict on out-of-year thing.

For secondary school you get to express 6 preferences if you live in Sutton - I think it is only 3 if you live in Surrey. So you could put the 3 Grammar schools as Nos 1,2 & 3 and sit the 3 tests. If you didn't get any of those you could still have 3 more chances at the non-selective schools. My experience is that you really need to start tutoring in Y5 because the tests are held in the first term on Y6. Yes, I know somebody will come along to say their child passed the entrance test without ever looking at a practice paper but that really is the exception rather than the rule. Even very bright kids would find it very difficult to do well in a Non-verbal reasoning test under exam conditions if they had never done it before. And remember it is not just a question of passing the test. To get a place you need to be in the first 120 or so of the 1000+ boys who will sit the test.
Sorry, that is not meant to put you off. But it is the reality and you need to have a fallback. Sutton is usually one of the top peforming LEA's in the country year on year - even the "bad" schools are pretty good. I suppose the thing you really need to do is to visit a few schools (and this is true of both secondary and primary) and get a feel for what you like.

you live up to your name thanks

Realistically I suspect he'll only stand a chance of passing 11+ for grammar if he stays back and is prepared for it ahead, no matter how intrinsically bright he is. As 40&fab says even then he may well have to sit it early into Year 6 which wouldn't allow much time to settle into the system beforehand. I know from experience that it has taken ds a couple of years (we've been back 3 now) to catch up his UK peers, some of whom are sitting independent school 11+ exams atm, having spent up to aged 7 at an international school. This is not only in terms of academics but also self confidence.

I agree Lizs. Based on all info (former teachers, current T & H, me, I am sure he his right for grammar, and also currently in the right year group, so will make it happen somehow that he stays.

I agree & am aware tho that we need to start prep for 11+ based on what I've read on mn. Convincing dh is another matter tho, who is adamant his natural intelligence is enough Frustrating. So, you suggested independant school for 1 year, his HT also suggested the same. It is my preferred option, tho, surprise surprie not dh's.

So, have you got direct 11+ experience? I've looked at the web sites a couple of people suggested, but frankly, when I've got so much else to organise (looking for primary for other 2 dss, looking for areas/house/ sorting kg here blah blah blah) there's just too much info etc.

Being in Germany, obviously a tutor is out of the Q. So, do you, or anybody else know, what resources are best recommended & what's the best way for me to help prepare him. (Disclaimer - I am not stupid, honest, but my school days are long gone. I looked at some maths Q, and it was converting decimals to fractions or vice versa, and can't for the life of me remember how to do this, so is there a parents guide too ) also, should I be aiming at say 10 minutes a night or sitting a full paper once a week or what? head throbbing

Final Q - I've never seen a SAT paper - are these a similar test to the 11+ or totally different animal?

It is a horrible diemma- we went through agonies moving ds at 7 and friends have got a 10 year old they are planning to move back this year , possibly straight into secondary , with a similar issue.

I'd recommend getting hold of Bonds assessment papers and they also do practice papers, there are examples and information online. Also if you look at some independent school websites (Reigate Grammar and Whitgift for example) there are dummy past papers online which may give you an idea of what is expected but not sure of state ones are exactly the same.

Collins do some really useful , if a bit laboured , progressive workbooks for Key stage 2 for Maths and English practice which you can pick and choose from but it assumes they have already been shown the methods. Collins and Bonds are available from Amazon.

Incidentally dh attended a state grammar and visited a local independent one - ds liked it but dh didn't feel it would necessarily suit him best.

Just got reply from Sutton "Dear Ms xxx

Blah blah blah

The admissions team would normally only accept applications for a child's chronological age group and it would be up to the individual schools to assess if they felt it was necessary for a child to be educated out of their year group.

It would be advisable to provide evidence of why the child needs to be educated out of their age group and you should provide the schools with any professionally supported letters or reports that you may have which would assist them in reaching their decision.

At this time applications for children of primary school age are made directly to the individual schools and the borough co ordinates the applications for children applying for transfer to secondary school.

Blah blah

WOuld a strong letter from his current HT cover this do you think?

Sp just a Q of finding a good nearby primary that would take him?

Lizs, thanks for your link. I've looked through them, but there really are so many, I still don't have a clue where to start. That's clearly the make to get - seen them ementioned several times now, always their name pops up, just which product(s) is/are the right ones, you yould end up spending ££££

Ernest,

Another thought:

Have you talked directly to any state primary schools? You may find some heads have a say in year group entry for children not joining in reception. A lot will depend on vacancies in the school. This might mean avoiding the most over-subscribed schools.

If dh is very pro-state schools get him onto this one.

Also, grammar schools have changed a lot in the last 20/30 years. Depends where you are, but some now select from the top 5% children, many who have been prep'd since Infant school.

Some comprehensives get good results and they are heavily streamed nowadays. But you may need to make sure you pick a primary school that feeds into a good comp (another good question for dh to ask).

Amey

thanks amey. certainly looking into state primaries. phoned 2 re year group. 1 said no problem, other said no way.

Can't make head nor tail of league tables to try to work out what's good, they all seem the same, and being here in Gemany can't exactly ask around or pop in to see. Feels like it's all coming together though, slowly, with endless surfing and loads of input from lovely helpful mumsneters.

Hi Ernest - my MIL confirmed with the education dept today that in fact it is the SCHOOL that has the individual decision as to whether your child can stay in his current year group rather than the year ahead. The LEA cannot make the decison at all and the school should not be looking to the LEA for an answer on this only for guidance. The current education guidelines are specific aswell in that in making this sort of decision the school Head (who has the decision making power) should look to the best interests of the particular child which means that I would think you probably have a good case to keep your ds inthe year group he is in - appranetly what you need to do is talk to the individual schools that you want ds to attend.

The big difficulty comes in trying to then find a secondary school that would be willing to allow him to be out of year because if you can't find a secondary school then he would have to go back up to his actual year group which is absoutely nuts!

Anyway - hth you need to be speaking to the schools rather than the LEA's, the tricky bit is secondary schools which certainly in Kent will be a nightmare what with the Kent test etc.

Ooh my MIL also said to tell you that you need to make clear to schools that ds's first education language is not English because although not a SEN children who not been educated wqith English as their first language fall into a special category which may help when it comes to taking the test

All the best getting sorted!

Thanks beagle. I've already phoned 3 grammar schools who all said they'd have no problem with him being out of year. Actually contacting schools direct feels more in control iyswim.

Thanks your mil for me.

wondering if strong testimony from current head would be enough, or if we need to look into getting some other professional proof/backup (and if so, what) - any thoughts?

Sounds like you need to tackle the primary schools to get him into year 6, then take it form there once he is in the system.

As to the books , yes you can buy a load and spend £££. I'd get the 3 Bonds papers for his actual age - 9-10? - then you'll be able to see if you need to work at a lower level for now to get his confidence up. The first 2 Collins maths books cover mostly year 3/4 work and form the foundations of KS2 but they are rather longwinded and ds did some sections then skipped. I've not looked at the English ones. Can his current school offer any text books you could look through first (Nelson,Heinemann etc) and guide you as to what areas to focus on ?

thanks lizs, can you just clarify - are these Bond boks specifically for 11+, or are they just general work books aimed at improving maths, english etc? (sorry for being dim)

I was just going to ask that! Lizs, Head did promise to lend me some stuff, but she's not mentioned it since. Have chased her up with an email, but don't want to be too pushy as she's already busy enough & it's not really her job iyswim.

Do the books recommend have thickie parents guide too?

lol no they don't !

The Bond Assessment Papers start at age 6-7 and progress to 11+ and secondary entry and are roughly in line with competitive entrance test standards Each book contains 20 or so timed tests (30 minutes each iirc) -you mark them and plot a graph to monitor progress. They can familiarise the child with the test conditions and format and highlight where you may need to focus. If you look here there is info for parents and a diagram of the various books and what they aim to achieve.

The Collins books are more to practice the curriculum as it is learnt or to revise. So if your child has a problem with a particular topic you can go over it. There are many similar series from other publishers, so it is a matter of personal preference.

oh and if you click on the book covers at the bottom of that page there is free stuff to download so you get tips and examples of what they are.