groaning under the weight of private school fees!

[pearso]

Hello,
I've got one child at private school, the other still at state primary for another year and we're dreading the decision next year about what to do. It's very unlikely we'll be able to afford a second set of school fees. Is anyone else in a similar situation? I'd love to hear from you if you are.... I'm also writing about it in my column for the Evening Standard so wouldn't use names but would love to hear what people think, especially in London and about any experiences good or bad.
thanks!

Haven't read all yet.Interesting Boffinmum.We are thinking of moving back to Suffolk from UK.Did consider Cambridge[where I lived for a time,but too pricey rentwise]However,I feel you comments are quite heartening in a way.I have been looking at schools in.and around Woodbrige[state].Will read on....

Where did the notion that state school children automatically mix well, and private school children don't?

That is such bollox that is never backed up with any real data. If you go into any given state school, you will find that pupils are socially grouped according to their background and race.

I actually find that there are few divisions in private schools, probably because they are smaller and tend to have robust pastoral systems (eg the house system), widespread participation in teams and in extra-curricular activities. Thorough uniforms remove any trace of wealth or doing things for show.

As one of the poorer families in our schools, I would say that we have never been excluded from rich kid activities or felt to feel inferior. I say that from a child perspective and also a parent perspective. I would say that the richer kids have been extrememly generous to us without expecting anything in return (eg sleepovers, birthday parties that included a flight).

I think there are plenty of private school families who do not flash the cash and are well aware of the 'fur coat and nae knickers' notion. You just can't tell by appearances so you might as well all just get along.

I asked my DD (year 7) who her best friends were, and she named a Brazilian girl, a Muslim girl and a Sikh girl (we are WASP). What do you make of that?

Meant from Ireland[sorry rush post]

blackrock, there's research that suggests middle class kids just huddle in the state sector as well, in other words like seeks out like. The broader social mix thing isn't all it seems.

x posts!

Personally speaking, my independent school had a lot more of an international and social mix than my rural primary school ever had, or my local comprehensive would have had as well. Some schools can be very parochial and introspective.

The only things we showed off about in my 'posh' school were who was a Sony Walkman early adopter, and who was the slimmest. There's wasn't much more in the way of consumerism. We were far too busy swooning over Adam Ant and Simon le Bon.

Just because a kid has a string of grade As at GCSE does not necessarily make them Oxbridge material.

Some GCSE kids can not make the jump to A level because they are not really that bright ...

You must be about the same age as me, Boffin - but I will declare that I did not swoon over Adam Ant.

It is all very well for lots of mumsnetters to say how good the state system is for them - it may well be in their area however I would like to know what they would do if their loacl state secondary had a record of 27% getting 5 GCSEs. Would they send their children to a school like that? Schooling in this country is a postcode lottery - if all schools were of a good standard I am sure that a lot of people would leave the private sector.

I have stopped swooning only since I found out he had shagged Carol Caplin. I subsequently kept having post traumatic flashbacks which also featured Cheri Blair and which I found very disturbing.

Duh. Thanks LISZ - I couldn't figure it out at all!

I sympathise with Retiredgoth2 - twins aged seven and fears for their future education. Many a night I sat up chainsmoking trying to work out a solution when my twins were sinking in years seven and eight of a bogstandard comprehensive. I, too, started to envy those who could afford fees. Then along came year nine and they had better teachers for SATs and for the first time they found themselves in top sets. (In years seven and eight setting was just for maths and sport.)
Then, hello, here's years 10 and 11, the GCSE years. Best teachers in the school, regular homework, revision sessions after school and much less disruption of lessons. I can't pretend that they have had as rounded an education as they would have had at a good (not all are good) private school but at least their comprehensive has kept them motivated and interested in learning.
If they do well at GCSE, which I hope they will, they're off to a good sixth form college for A levels.
So Retiredgoth2, not all is lost if you have to stick with the state system.

Agree with you, ultra. Am in the same position. In the press they've been saying 'parents who educate privately will have to "fall back" on the state system this year'.... we've nowhere to fall back on....

Dottoressa - you are partly right but I'm not sure I get your logic with the other part...

ultra, idealist
Our local comp has 22% getting 5 A-Cs.
We were going private, and we can afford to do so, but I'm now seriously considering state. 22% get A-Cs but some of those 22% are getting more than 5 A-Cs and some of those are getting mostly As. It's just an average after all. Just trying to keep an open mind.

would love but when the value added is failing so badly it seems fairly pointless..

scienceteacher on Wed 07-Jan-09 18:47:08

"I asked my DD (year 7) who her best friends were, and she named a Brazilian girl, a Muslim girl and a Sikh girl (we are WASP). What do you make of that?"

Nothing in particular tbh. No different from my state educated dd whose circle of friends includ a Hindu girl, a Polish girl and a Jehovah's witness. Also a fairly wide social range from the children of academics and professionals to cleaners and dinner ladies. Ds's friends are from several different races; I see nothing unusual in this.

Going into any given state school clearly isn't enough.

ultra on Wed 07-Jan-09 19:32:30
"It is all very well for lots of mumsnetters to say how good the state system is for them - it may well be in their area however I would like to know what they would do if their loacl state secondary had a record of 27% getting 5 GCSEs. Would they send their children to a school like that?"

A fair few of us don't have much a choice in the matter, ultra. 27% is not at all unheard of in our neck of the woods- but we still couldn't pay for private education for our children, not if we also wanted them to eat and have a roof over their heads.

Dh's and my combined salaries would only just cover school fees for two children, but not combined with the necessitites of life. Lots of Mumsnetters are on lower incomes than us.

Exactly - the whole idea of "choice" is spun by the pro-private lobby as if it were as simple a a matter as a brand of cornflakes. Making education into a commodity. The vast majority of the 93% don't have a choice. It;s not like they take a look at the results and go "Well, I was in favour of state education but actually, my local school's shit so now I'm going to pull £20k a year out from behind the sofa."

But UQD, isn't it the same for everything - cars, shoes, houses, even food.
Many people don't get a choice really do they?
Why is it okay that some kids live in nice warm homes whilst others live in damp tenement blocks?
It's not actually is it...but most of us are not moving out of our homes to equalise things.

Oh for goodness sake, OP, get over yourself and send them to state schools. You worried they might catch something?

There seem to be two different discussions/debates here. One is that some people simply can't afford private schools, however crappy their state options are. I live in horror of this fate, not least because we couldn't in fact afford two lots of secondary private fees. We can just afford two lots of prep fees - but only just.

If you are in this position, as the OP claims to be, then you have to think about it early - not leave it as late as the OP appears to have left it. The options are: scholarships; join the clergy or armed forces; or get a job at a private school, thus getting a discount on fees. Failing that, you have to move to an area where the state schools are ones that you would be happy (or relatively happy) for your DCs to attend.

To my mind, the fact that we can't afford secondary fees is not insurmountable. We have a fair while to make sure we can somehow get both children into private secondary schools by hook or by crook. I am not an 80s child for nothing: to my mind, if you want something enough, you will move mountains to make sure it happens. I want my children to be educated in independent schools from 5-18 more than I want anything for myself. Not because I want them to be in some way superior or to make friends with only "suitable" (ha, ha) children - but because I believe that their interests are best served by schools that don't follow the NC, don't do SATS, do bother with the arts, and so on, and so on. If it really comes to it and I can't afford it despite everything, then I shall take them out of school altogether and find tutors for the subjects that I can't teach them myself (namely anything scientific).

(I think this burble is probably aimed at the OP!)

So while there isn't a "choice" for some people, other people do have more choices about education than they like to think. It seems to me that some people are more comfortable with the idea that they can't afford it, rather than busting the proverbial gut to do something about it (not aimed at anyone on here - just a general observation).

That leads me on to the second, rather different discussion. And that is: if we agree that private schools really are not an option for many, many people - then what about those for whom it would be an option, if only it weren't against their principles? In a way, principled state-schoolers would be doing the Right Thing by opting for independent education, thereby freeing up a place at a good state school for a less well-off child.

Oh, I don't know. What do people do who really do live in areas with direly awful schools (like our local secondary), and who genuinely can't afford an alternative, even if they convert to the priesthood? What a horrible system it is.

PS UQD: that was just me being grumpy. Sheffield bugs me because it's such a terrible place for school-selection-by-income. When we tried to move to S11, we were priced out of the market by the fact that everything we looked at was in the Dobcroft/Silverdale catchment area, thus astronomically expensive. And we didn't even want the children to go to those schools!

just dont start these threads - hideous

Cory, it kind of scuppers the notion that private schools aren't diverse.

What tosh!

I dont think how a person mixes in society has anything to do with their race or culture etc. You get posh people and common people in every culture/race. So I dont think that how diverse your school is, makes much difference on that point.

I do think that the private sector does create a certain type of person. Yes, I am generalising but there is a stereotype for a reason.
I personally don't get along with most that come from that background because I find them stuck up and difficult to relate to. We are on different levels, basically because they know more than I do and they speak accordingly and I find it hard to keep up. But I am moderately intelligent and even I find it difficult to talk to some people because they dont understand my level of language. So I am not at all surprised by the society/education seperation. At the end of the day I prefer to be around be those I find intellectually stimulating.

I envy those that went to independent school and i would of loved to have the opportunities that they have.
I never actually went to school in this country though, so I dont really know much about the state schools etc, but when the favourite national newspaper is The Sun I think things must be pretty dire to some extent. So if the standard of state schools was higher and more consistent then maybe people would have more faith in them!

I'm constantly surprised by the double standards on these independent versus state education threads.

I agree that sending your child to an independent school is stealing a march on those who can't afford it.

But so too is engineering entry to a state school (moving into a catchment area, manufacturing faith etc) which is an improvement on others in your LEA.

If your child's school is better than the lowest performing school in your LEA (unless quite by accident) you really have no moral authority to complain about others improving their children's education by fee-paying.

Surely we should all be lobbying for improvement in state education - something that would benefit everyone?