Should I leave my child at his boys prep school until 13 or move at 11?

[SouthLondonMum]

My son's independent school prepares boys for the 13+ common entrance exam. It does not prepare boys for the 11+ and my son's teacher has told me that we will need to get a private tutor if we want him to stand a chance of passing his 11+ exam. He is in year 5 now and has only one year to prepare for the 11+.
We have three options.

1. He can stay at his current school until 11 and I can pay for a private tutor but the fees are very expensive already and he has lots of homework every night.
2. He could stay at his current school until 13 and sit the common entrance. This is not a great option as there is only one independent school locally with a large 13+ intake and I am not keen on it - there is a much greater choice of schools at 11 + entry and more chance of a scholarship.

However, he has had a couple of independent assessments recently and they have shown that he has a lot of catching up to do in his maths and english so I have my doubts about the quality of teaching at his school even though it is one of the top prep schools in London.

1. The last alternative is to move him to a much cheaper local prep school where they focus exclusively on prepping boys for the 11+ with very good results. He has been offered a place to start at this local school in January which would give him 3 terms to prepare. I am reluctant to move him because he has moved schools at the end of reception and end of year 1 already. Also he will miss his friends. Any ideas on what I should do would be gratefully received. Thanks.

I would agree with mouse - I would keep him where he is and have him tutored rather than move him again. It may be costly but it's for a limited time so it's not without an end point.

Is he very bright, or average for his group, does he love learning and school etc etc? what sort of boy is he? I imagine there may be small local preps which don't need exams passed to get in but still send them out with As and A* - it's just what the journey is like to get there, isn't it?

local private schools 11 - 18 I mean, not preps!

The first thing you have to do is see your current head teacher and discuss future schools for your child. Then you have to work towards their entrance requirements.

You need to know what the entrance tests for the 11-18 schools entail.

Do they use the ISEB 11+ papers (aka girls' common entrance), their own similar papers, verbal/non-verbal reasoning etc.? It is really important for you and the prep school to know.

If it is verbal/non-verbal reasoning, he will be being prepared for this already (as much as you can) because this is the type of testing that senior schools use as pretests for 13+.

If they use the ISEB papers, then your child should be able to tackle these, as they are very similar to the 13+ format, with the 13+ a natural progression (it is expected that in co-ed schools, that pupils will cover the 11+ work before tagging on the 13+ material).

If they set their own papers, it is helpful to get a look at past papers. If they don't provide these, then it probably isn't an important part of the assessment process for that school. It will certainly be based on the work he is already doing.

If he is struggling with maths and English, he is unlikely to be a scholarship candidate. Again, if you want details of scholarships, you have to get that from the individual schools.

If you seriously think he is not being taught properly and not reaching his potential, then you should move him. If he is simply not a high-flier academically, then keep him where he is.

The key thing is to communicate with your head ASAP. It's what they are there for.

They like to stay with their friends at that age.We have known lots of boys leaving at 11 fro schools that go up to 13+ particularly those going to state grammars from the private sector at 11+. But if it's somewhere like Haberdashers I think parents around here would try a boy at 11 (or even 7) and then only try at 13 if did not get in then usually as most boys start at 11 but the prep schools don't like it as they want the boys to stay at their current schools to 13. My sister's boys went to a school that only goes to 7 and they were prepared for entrance tests at 7 and did really well (now at the school she wanted hopefully to 13) so there does seem some merit in being in a school that prepares the childfor the exams you expect.

Thanks for all the advice.
I thought my son was doing ok at school as he always had good school reports but I've just had him externally assessed and it appears that he needs a lot of work just to get him up to current year 5 level and so will need intensive tutoring in order to pass the 11+. I feel aggrieved at paying top dollar to a top private school when my son is not learning much and whenever I ask about 11+ they say that I should get a tutor as they do not prepare boys for the 11+. Also he gets a lot of homework so I am not sure how he will do that as well as the tutoring homework.

You need to talk about specific senior schools with your prep school head as each has their own entrance requirements. There is no such thing as a generic 11+. It's not helpful to talk in generalities, because then there will be misunderstandings.

As for 'passing' the 11+, again their is no such thing. The key thing is to meet the entrance criteria of the senior school you have chosen. Some will require your son to meet a specific standard, others will just use the assessment to get to know him.

When you say that your son is not up to 11+ standard, what do you mean by that? Do you have a particular, competitive selective school in mind that you want him to go to? If so, are you sure this is the right school for him to go to.

A lot of prep school parents think that since they are paying, their child should be able to pass the entrance exams of any given senior school, but it doesn't work like that. Prep schools have a very broad intake, and their objective is to move the children onto the right senior school for them, not necessarily the one that heads the leaugue tables. There are senior schools for all abilities, and perhaps your son is more suited to one of those, rather than an academic hothouse.

I agree with science teacher. If he is at a top prep school then this will show in the schools it feeds into at 13. You need to ask for info about this.

The point of a prep school is that it prepares for entry at 13+. They are aiming for most boys to take common entrance and achieve places at a school suitable for their ability. IME this transition is quite smooth with boys only trying for one school, as long as the parents listen to what the head recommends for their son. It goes wrong where they feel their son should be going to a top academic public school and do not listen to recommendations.

You need to discuss options with the head, decissions should be made quite soon and his name put down. As regards leaving at 11, prep schools do not like this as they lose 2 years fees. They also do not prepare for entrance exams at 11 if they go onto 13.

I agree very much with Lazymum about listening to the advice of the head.

The main motivation for a prep school is to get their pupils into the right senior school for that child. If there is only one 13+ school in the area and that's not a good fit, and boarding is out of the question, then they will be happy to prepare the child for a Year 7 entry into senior school.

Obviously if there are 13+ schools that he will thrive at, they will encourage you to hang on for them.

I don't think by following a 13+ course that he will be unprepared for an 11+ assessment, but the school will have to know which schools you are applying to by the start of Year 6.

You would need to be applying for 13+ senior schools in Year 6 in any case, so you should be having the discussions with your prep head very soon.

I'm puzzled as to why he would not be prepared for 11+ simply by being at school - especially if he's already doing so much homework ..

ds1 did 10+ entry for 2 schools, both of which set an english paper (comprehension and story/essay), maths paper and verbal reasoning - 11+ would have been the same and the other schools we were considering all had a similar set-up

he had no tutoring and sailed through the exam despite being at a not particularly academic state primary

if your ds is behind in maths and english at this age, surely his school should be addressing this as a matter of urgency as presumably he'd also struggle with 13+?

I'd be worried at paying loads of money for a school and then having my child behind in Maths and English.

The dc's school goes up to 13 but if you want to leave at 11 they have a separate stream for that. They offer what the market demands.

In your shoes I would move him to the prep that prepares for the 11+ although it sounds like you will have to do extra work with him to get him up to standard.

Depends what she means by 'behind'

Well, she said "I've just had him externally assessed and it appears that he needs a lot of work just to get him up to current year 5 level".

That sounds like he is below the standard expected for a typical Year 5.

I find it odd that if only one school accepts 13+ there isn't more work done along the way for those who would choose to sit 11+ as what happens to those who don't do well enough to be accepted there at CE ? Do they travel further afield or board ?

Certainly at ours about a third leave at 11. There are extra lessons in preparation for 11+ exam (practice papers and top ups) for those who need it but all the children follow the same curriculum regardless of when they may leave. If your child is so behind already maybe they are saying he can't achieve a good 11+ (after all the top prep schools want to demonstrate good results to prestigious schools not just scrapes) but it may come good by 13. If you are serious about him needing to do 11+, go with 3 but be sure you will get what you are paying for.

I think I've failed the comprehension part of the OP because I don't understand the premise of the question.

Why is it necessary to have a school that prepares for the 11+ or a separate tutor? I know a lot of parents do do both but it doesn't seem to me to be necessary. DD did precisely three practice papers for entry to state grammar (total time less than six hours, plus an hour each paper of going over the questions she had got wrong). She did no practice for the independent school entry. She got through to the independent school and I'm sure she'll get through to the grammar school.

I honestly think you are taking this too seriously. Certainly wouldn't go so far as to change schools unless your DS is unhappy or there are concerns over the academic standards.

The only thing that did worry me is the comment that he has a lot of catching up to do in his maths and english. How has this situation arisen when it is a high-quality prep and he is already working at full stretch (I am extrapolating from the comment about lots of homework every night)?

Just read your second post SLM - who did you have him externally assessed by?

When you say a top prep, what do you mean? Because right now, like you, I'm wondering how good this top prep is. Is it academically selective on the way in? Ours is and children who are having difficulties keeping up go to learning support and if the difficulties persist they are counselled out. So it just doesn't make much sense to me that your DS has always had good reports and now appears to be behind.

I agree, Quattrocento. I'm surprised at a "top prep" allowing this situation to arise. Why has the OP had no warning that her dc is behind with Maths & English?

That's why I wonder if it is a relative thing rather than not achieiving the general standard.

I think we need a few answers from the OP.

I'm shocked that a decent prep wouldn't have let you know much sooner that things were going astray and also that you haven't been having chats with thwe powers that be as to your next move.
We have regular chats about secondary school at my DCs prep to make sure we all kinow what we're trying to achieve.

This is the first time I have heard of a prep school NOT helping their children change at 11. I guess they are not the only ones, but they are doing it because it gets them another 2 years of fees. They do not want to encourage a drop off of kids at 11.

You should complain, really, their job is to PREPARE their pupils for the senior chool of choice, that's why they are called a PREPARATORY school. They won't chnage unless the parents complain.

We are in the North West. DS is at a 'top prep' from which most boys go to Manchester Grammar with a large percentage of girls going to Withington (which I think was ranked 2nd last year)

He was assessed on entry and at regular intervals throughout. Up here, most children transfer at 11 but parents are kept fully informed of their child's progress and guided towards taking the entry exams deemed appropriate. We actually have an excellent range of independent senior schools here, not just the hot-houses of MGS and WGS. Some are highly selective but others are just interview and are considered more nurturing.

What I'm trying to say is that by Y5, your school should know which local senior school your child is best suited to and be preparing him accordingly. Most kids (IME) take 2 or 3 entrance tests. By doing its research, our school makes sure that every year, every child has at least one offer.

I'm stunned that,
a)a prep school should not prep a child for an entrance exam at 11. Surely market forces dictate this if there is just one option at CE? (Also the two schools here which go to 13 and feed the country's boarding schools from Repton to Eton also coach the boys who are sitting exams at 11 to attend local day schools.)

The only schools I have ever heard of who do not prep at 11 are those who, themselves go up to 18. However, academically, even if not up to scratch with VR, those children should be able to sit and pass the entrance exam of other indie senior schools if all through the juniors parents were told the child was doing well.

b)That your DS would be so behind and you not know about it. I know that our school would make very clear tome as early as possible if they thought DS was struggling.
As it happens, I'm worried about him socially but, TBH, school don't care as he's a very bright, curteous boy who loves to learn.

The first thing you need to do is see the Head. Their job is to make sure that each and every one of the children gets a senior school place.

Thinking about this, it seems even more odd. If children are going off to other schools than the local one at 13+, then lots will have sat a pre-test at 11+. Does the school not prepare them for this?

Thanks again for all the messages. In response to the comments, I didn't realise there was a concern with my son's education until I started doing a few Bonds papers and 10+ exam papers and then realised he found these very difficult especially the problem solving questions. As a result, I have had him assessed by two different tutors and the results in maths and verbal reasoning/non-verbal reasoning were quite poor. These tutors are experienced in assessing children and prepping them for 11+ for grammars and independent schools.

I have approached the school to see if he could get extra support and they just said not to worry about his work as they are running a four year program (year 5 to year 8) so they have plenty of time. His maths teacher has told me that he would need private tutoring in order to do the 11+ as they will not cover the topics that are necessary in order to pass the 11+ in the required timeframe. The school have really nothing to alert me to because as far as they are concerned they do not have to prep children for 11+ and they want all boys to stay to 13. (Only 1 or 2 usually leave at 11) They would not agree that he is struggling because they are not testing him on the things he find difficult i.e verbal reasoning, non verbal reasoning or maths problem solving (the stuff you need for 11+). He is doing quite advanced work (at least Year 7 level) in science, French, geography etc and this is taught by rote learning of facts and so his study of these topics have not thrown up any major issues. He has a lot of homework (at least 1 hour every night) but his maths/english homework is usually very easy and not relevant to the 11+. Also, he gets good grades in maths and english, but as the classes are streamed they are grading him against the other children in his stream, not against all the boys in his year group. For example, he was given a grade 1 which mean "excellent" for his maths in his last report and an A for effort.

The question of pre-testing at 11 has come up but I don't know how the school plan to deal with this. Maybe children in the scholarship band are being prepped for this but my son definitely is not.

Whilst about 50% of the children go to our local private school which has a large 13+ entry the remainder mainly go to prestigious schools such as Eton, Charterhouse, Tonbridge which are all out of my price range and/or out of London. If he stays to 13+ we will only have the one local school that has a large proper intake at 13+, the others have their main entry point at 11+ and 16+.