Once the food is sorted let's.....

[happymerryberries]

.....keep the pressure on the government to sort out schools.

Let's have an end to kids who's behaviour is out of control, wrecking their chance of education and that of everyone in the classroom along with them.

Let's have an end to the pretence that inclusion can work for every child and stop the closure of special schools.

Let's have an end to education for SN on a shoe string budget, a policy that leave the most vulnerable out in the cold and adds to their problems.

Let's have a return to the realisation that rights come with responsibilites.

Let's have real funding for schools so that they can afford little luxuries like books.

Let's have specialist teachers in every school that can work with kids with EBD so that we can help them, and in doing so help all the other kids that suffer their behaviour.

Let's stop pretending that all kids will get 5 A* to C grades and get them literate and numerate and able to interact with other people in a reasonable way....then teach them French and Science.

Once Jamie has sorted out the food, lets sort out the rest!

Am I right in thinking that our education system is founded on having a "broad and balanced" curriculum?

If so, wouldn't it be more sensible to think about how to teach science and any other difficult subject to low achievers, rather than suggesting dropping it all togther?

It does worry me that kids can get through elementary school without basic skills, but are we doing them any favors by just continuing with the same-old, same-old literacy and numeracy that hasn't worked on them to date?

I know teaching is one of the hardest jobs you could do, and hats off to all our dedicated teachers.

Hope I haven't offended anyone. It looks like this is a touchy subject but I can't really figure out why some people are getting offended and upset.

Well, inspired by this thread I have just written this letter to my local Conservative candidate:

Dear XXX XXX,

Thank you for your recent mailshot regarding crime, however as a mother of two children living in the catchment area of a rather frighteningly poor secondary school I am more interested in the Conservatives' education policies.

Can Conservatives promise:

• to invest more money in school food, so at the very least our children get the same funding for their meals that prisoners do! So that fresh produce is used every day and junk options are limited to a maximum of once a week?

• to introduce real measures to control highly disruptive children so that both they and their classmates have a real chance at education.

• to stop pretending that inclusion for everyone can work for every child, that every teacher has the ability to be an SN teacher and to stop the closure of specialist schools.

• give special needs education a funding boost so that it actually becomes education rather than glorified babysitting.

• to not expect children who are really struggling with basic reading and writing skills to cope with sophisticated science and language syllabuses and tailor their education accordingly.

• to get rid of the silly notion that "one size fits all" - bring back grammar schools and REAL technical vocation courses without the stigma. We need highly skilled plumbers, electricians, builders etc too!

Get children eating one decent meal a day and disruptive behaviour will drop at least a little. Give children real hope in life rather than just teaching them how to fail and crime will drop at least a little. Sound education policies will be an investment across all other societal issues.

That would be the vote winner for me.

Yours sincerely,
YYYY YYYY

Superb letter. All power to you!

That is excellent Georgina. I would be interested to see a reply if you get one.

Just one thought that's been bothering me since yesterday - vocational courses are fine in my book but I wouldn;t want to give the impression that people who can't read and write would in any way be suited to a job as a plumber or electrician!!

They are both highly technical jobs with a good understanding of maths required!

You wouldn't want your person who can't read to be fitting your gas boiler or to calculate the amount of radiators you need in a room based on the output of each one and the volume of the room. An electricians job requires a lot of mathermatical/physics
knowledge and to even become a registered electician you have to pass paper based exams.

Even your average builder these days runs complex budgeting and invoicing systems!

I'm not sure therefore that your average plumber, builder or electrician is going to be the vocational answer for those who can't read or write! I'm still sure that it might well be an alternative to A-levels for those who know that is the career they want to persue!

No I quite agree. I was rather thinking that if dialusioned kids had the chance to do a vocational training course that interests them, then they may well see the need for being able to read and write and nothing suceeds like sucess, IYSWIM.

And not denigrating trands people at all. In fact I just wish we could get shot of the idea that only the academic is valid or worth while. We all need people with a range of skills. THe current policy is into one size fits all, which is crap.

HMB - what would you teach as vocational skills to kids who can't read or write well??

I've been struggling to come up with a list and its so depressing

How to serve hamburgers in McDonalds?
How to work a till?
Waitressing (need to be able to write?)
Hairdressing?

'tis not a very long list????

soapbox - a fair point. For that I'm thinking more of people like one of our builders - he's been working since 13 years old, completely disenfranchised with school, learnt the trade from the ground up and now at the age of 19 is self-employed, owns heavy duty equipment and earns more than my dh. Now, fairly obviously that's someone with guts and determination to work damn hard, but how many kids lose any drive they have because they're set up to fail?

Yes, I'll let you know if I get any reply to my letter. I'm not holding out much hope. I would send it to my local (labour) MP too, but I usually get such a crap form letter back from him every time I write which doesn't even cover my query that I've almost given up bothering...

I suppose that my basic premice is that we should be giving up on the literacy, so I don't see that as a 'given'. I just wish that shools had the sorts of resources for the sort of specialist one to one that these kids need. When they get that the effects can be amazing....I am still old enough to remember the adult lieracy drives in the 70s and they seemed to be very sucessful.

Some of these kids get to be utterly switched off by education and I can totaly understand why. If I had spent 5 years falling more and more behind my mates I dont think that I would be a keen, motivated learner. In fact I know that I wouldn't!

What we need to do for these kids is two fold. Make them see that they can suceed once we give them the help and support that they need. e also have to give them a reason for learning. Many dialusioned girls in the school I work in have been turned around when they go to collage for day releace in beauty therapy or hair dressing. That gives them a reason to re-engage in learning.

Boys are often sent on a fire fighters course. Now, I know that these kids will still need the literacy/ numeracy to get to their final destination but if we can get them interested we can get them back into thinking that they can suceed.

there is a great quote that one of my mates told me, 'Whether you think you can, or whether you think you can't, you are probably right'

Other vocational skills needed:

How to open and run a bank account
How to write a cheque
Basic budgeting and money manage,ent (household)
Child care and parenting skills
How to use and navigate the Job Centre Plus website
How to access Government agencies
How to prepare a healthy meal for a family (oon a budget)

Also I think there should be some real life work experiences - and I don't mean just the current two weeks most kids do already. I mean some extended experience, with maybe links to vocational courses/training or apprenticeships. i know some schools do some of this with limited numbers of pupils on re0engagement programmes, but I really feel this needs to be exapnded upon to include many more pupils - and to have some form of incentive to employers who take this kids on.

Agree with you. We have extended work placement for some of our students. And It isn't a dodge because we don't want the hard work of teaching the. Rather some of these kids do very well in a different environment nd a fresh start with no 'history' behind them. I feel they woul help lots of the kids who will bearly scrape a G grade

Offering vocational courses isn't necessarily about the plumbers and builders of the future, its about catching their interest, giving them something that keeps them in school or college learning key skills (literacy & numeracy) alongside.

My dh is currently involved in a 'trainee firefighters course'. Disaffected pupils come one day a week for 10 weeks and learn about firefighting, first aid, health & safety, lines etc. They have to be in school fulltime on the other days and behaving in order to be allowed to 'pass out'. Its not about training the firefighters of the future but about giving these children some self esteem and some success. It's really taken off in this area.

Oh potty That was the thing I was talking about. It is soooooo good for the kids

Tell your dh it is one of the best things I have seem for these kids!

Our re-engagement works like this:

2 days in school. they are not following the same curriculum as the other pupils. They have most of their lesson time (bar ICT and technology) in one set aside room/unit. They do not study GCSEs. They do a literacy and nurmeracy qualification, and also have ICT and a technology syllabus, plus a bit more other stuff too - more general.

3 days aweek they are either at college doing a proper vocational course, or on a work placement.

This lasts for 1-2 years.

At present, only the most dissaffected pupils take part (about 12 from Y10/11). I would like to see this opportunity opened upp to far more pupils of all abilities too, not just those who have caused the most problems for the school.

Dh is really enjoying it too hmb - he's had children from special schools, kids with ASBO's, all sorts, and they've had some really good results. Whereabouts in the country are you? Dh works for the Staffs. brigade.

What do you teachers think about having different methods for teaching boys and teaching girls? I know that boys (at least at primary school age) learn much better when they can move around and learn in a physical way. I don't know (yet) whether this continues into secondary education.

Do you feel that boys learn better in a single sex environment, where their different learning skills can be encompassed or do they benefit from having girls around?

A friend who teaches in a single sex grammar school says she wants her son to be taught in a co-ed school, but her daughter taught in a single sex school. Her reasons are that boys benefit from competing with/having a good example set by girls, but that boys distract girls from achieving their best.

What say you?

East Midlands. We have just had a group of kids do it and it is amazing. Please tell your dh that we all think that they are doing a fab job. Positive male role models are often lacking in these kids lives.

Freckle, my boss taught in an all boys grammer school and she has always said that tshe thinks it is the best environment for boys to learn. I have no experience of single sex ed so I can't comment. I do know that some schools have experimented with single sex classes in a mixed school IYSIM. They have said the results are good, but I haven't studied them in detail.

Re the althernative ways of learning, multiple intelegences is a big thing in schools. We are all encouraged to vary the way in which we teach to cover Visual, auditory and Kinasthetic (movement). Sometimes it can be quite hard. I had a Kinesthetic learner in the sixth form and that was hard going. We did a lot of model building etc and that seemed to help a bit. But I'll confess it wasn't ideal

Well, that's encouraging from a personal perspective as DS1 has just been offered a place in a grammar school in September. I went to a single sex grammar school and I'm not sure whether it was good or bad. Coming from a family of 3 girls, it didn't exactly help me become comfortable around the opposite sex. I have 3 boys, so I worry a little about this for them, although things are a little different these days, with students being able to apply to different schools in the sixth forms - so girls can apply to boys' grammars and vice versa.

HMB for primeminister immediatley. my 12 yr old daughter sits in a SN class with children who don't know the alphabet. she -ihave been told byt he school - has towait for them to catch her up - meanwhile she ismissing some(notall) ENGLISH CLASSES - anyone see the irony here? she is in a sn class becuase she doesn't take note of punctuation during reading and her comprehension skills need improving. shes in a class with 12 yrolds who cannot read or write.

its not right - but the school are so strong in theor argument when they speak to me - but its not right am i as a parent - an involved parent who should have her own parking space at school i amthere so often - cannot argue. its draining and my daughter suffers. yet shes so bright - first in french every week, writing and presentation excellent - she actually reads books at home shes my brain pot for whom formal education without GNVQ's could actually work

on the GNVQ's - my 15 yrold is going to college one day a week. I - ME found him a work placement, school is organising insurance. academically......thick as shit - one of those kids HMB is talking about. he acts out to cover his inadequacies - school is about showing him every single minute of every single day what a complete and abject failure he is - i am surprised he is as good as he is as i am sure in that very frustrating situation i would have burned the school down.

tell me why is it thatmy son has to do PE, science, French or German, IT, LEisure and fking tourism! - why? i want him to come out of school with english and maths - thats all - just be able to read and write fluently and to add up and take away and multiply - simple fundamental basic skills which will help him in adult life - dont waste him time and the time of the other pupils when he is flicking elastic bands round the classroom - becuase he hasn't got a fking clue - waste of time all round.

then i have a son12 who tries very hard - isn't very good - mediocre at best for whom the school system as is - with the lessons all round and the possibility of GNVQ's will probably work - becuase hes not gifted in the brain dept - but he tries his damndest.

so then i have this question - why the flipflapfuck do kids have to learn joined up writing? its scruffy - my boys struggle with it but they do their work as instructed - thenno fecker can read it. yet if they print - they get reprimanded forit?

i dont get it makes no sense - make sense of it for me

Just wanted to add a small thought to this thread - Bucks is a very rich county, full of people who have moved there specifically to get their children into the excellent grammar schools. The average property price in Beaconsfield is £500,000. From what I've read on the education threads, Bucks is in no way comparable with the areas in which hmb and hulababy teach.

I haven't had time to read all of the threads but wanted to add that I do agree it is virutally impossible to try and teach some topics to illiterate children. To cite one example of a year 9 girl who had a reading age of 6... she couldn't keep up with the work and it resulted in poor behaviour. I asked SEN for support and they told me to give her colouring in to do! Both she and I found it very patronising, and I ended up making her her very own worksheets every lesson, but they were so simplistic, that they bore very little relation to what any of the other students were doing... she resented it, and still played up... but what can you do? She didn't want to be seen as different yet blatantly couldn't do the work.

Now, she should be in year 11, but she hasn't been to school for months... she's learnt not to fail at school.... and there's lots more like her at the schools I've taught at! Quite simple, I do not see the solution in mixed ability teaching... Having A* grade students sat next to someone with a reading age of 6 is just a recipie for disaster and I don't know how you can teach them all the same ayllabus when some of them can't even read the books!