It's beyond me how any child manages to pass the grammar school test

[emkana]

We're not there yet (oldest child is 7) but some friends are and they are telling me about it and it sounds horrendous - the pressure, and such random and difficult questions - and 80 questions in 50 minutes!!!

As a grammar school girl (some years ago!) I recall doing a few practice papers at primary school. The questions weren't hard once you had sussed what they were looking for and were hugely repetitive. If you are in catchment for a grammar school then the primary school should prepare your dc.

Not if it's a state school they won't, you'll have to do it yourself.

My son is in year 7 at his grammar school. The tests are horrendous and noone prepared him for this but me. Schools don't get involved as far as Iam aware.

Agree with MollieO - they might try a little but the serious work will be up to you, dh and your child.

DD2 had her familiarisation tests yesterday. State primary does not prepare them for the 11 plus, we have done some practice papers at home but that is all.

DD's primary were so sniffy about the existence of the grammar school they refused to even comment on her chances of getting in (which she did). The local prep school, however, did coaching from the end of year 5. Think the competition will now be even stiffer with a lot of people not being able to continue with private education.........but that's a whole other issue

State schools are not allowed to prepare children for any sort of test for a selective school. Tutoring is big business.

The girls from my local state primary are all tutored from the age of seven in order to get into the local grammar. It is intensive teaching "to the test", and the tutors must be making a fortune.

The primary school basks in the reflected glory of the SATS results.

Bodengroupie - I had the same reaction from the head at ds's school when I approached them to discuss his chances. very rude lady!

i was in a non grammar borough so was the only one in my school who was taking thew 11+ which removed alot of the pressure i suppose but the questions were fine, very repetitive, quick and easy once you master multiple choice technique, ie spend last 30 secs ticking random boxes for unfinished questions just in case

Guess it has changed from when I was at school! I went to a state primary in the middle of a large council estate and we had some preparation - 2 or 3 practice papers. No one that I know had any extra tuition, not sure any was available then. I know some who passed but then struggled at grammar school and switched to the secondary school either during the course of the first year or at the end of it.

We are in catchment for an apparently excellent grammar school but I've heard that pupils there are tutored and that this is encouraged. Can't see the point in tutoring to pass the 11+ and then carrying on tutoring to keep the school results high.

My ds's school apparently makes recommendations on whether pupils should do the 11+ or not.

I thought the same with my ds.
I didn't want him to be tutored into the school because I thought he might struggle once there.
I decided that if he passed the test with just help from me then he was 'supposed' to be there iyswim

I think its because from what I can work out, a pass is just over half the questions right(in other words, nearly half the answers wrong)
A full 140 mark is 75% of the answers right, and even if they get 100% right, its still only a 140 pass mark.
The pass rate was 114.
If you didnt answer any questions at all...you still got 60.
A pass of 128, was in actual fact...42 out of 72 questions. So 30 WRONG!!!

pass mark is c.85% here, which is very high IMO

It should be a high standard and it should be something you can't tutor for IMO. If the DC has a high IQ they will get a place. If they don't pass,it wasn't a suitable school for them.

Ouch.. This is about the way its done in Kent, but must be slightly out of date because the pass rate this year was 114. Not 120. The Kent Tests ? Information for Parents
The maximum score in any of the Kent PESE tests is 140, but this does not equate to 100%.
Historically, the score of 140 equates to approximately 75% on any one test.

A minimum selective score of 120 equates to approximately 50%. The tests are in:
Verbal Reasoning (80 questions)
Non-Verbal Reasoning (72 questions)
Mathematics (50 questions)

Figures are approximate because older children in the year group needed to gain a slightly higher % than this, whilst younger children could gain a slightly lower %. In addition, there is a variation from year to year.

There is no guarantee that this pattern (standardisation) will continue in January 2008 or that commercially produced practice tests match this distribution.

The average IQ is 100, therefore most DCs will be around that. Grammar school is for the top percentage so the pass rate should be high. It makes a mockery of the whole thing if DCs are drilled-they have to cope once they get there.

Where I live, each school (state grammar, or partially selective) has its own entrance exam. The exams are all different.

There will be anything up to 2000 children sitting for between 45 and 200 places, depending on which school.

Pass marks become irrelevant in that situation, because the school just topslices the number of children for the available places.

In fact, it really is a case of needing to get 100% for the majority of schools.

It is unbelievably stressful.

AbbeyA - I totally flunked tests which were the equivalent of the 11+ when I was 11. 2yrs later I would have breazed through them............why? Because the school I had been attending was the absolute pits and had taught me NONE of the basic stuff that I needed to be able to even contemplate answering teh questions.

As soon as I went to a school which taught me properly (including doing their damned hardest to get 5/6yrs of basic maths stuff into me - well basics of most stuff actually) I found it much easier going.

I was 12 and didn't even know what an equation was - so faced with something such as

x+2=7 I didn't have a clue what it meant!

Really it's a miracle I got the exam results I did at senior school given that stuff I didn't know at 11/12yrs old (and some stuff now - like English - verbs,noun, adjectives etc - completely confound me) my DS1 is starting to learn/has already learned in Yr2

My IQ is actually above average but those questions to me where like looking at Chinese as I'd never even encountered anything like that in my life.

oh and on the IQ paper at that same school I apparently scored very well so they were "surprised" that I did so badly in the other subject papers (I wasn't )

we're in Kent too. ds1, yr 4, has just done a verbal and non verbal reasoning 11+test. He had never seen one before. We were given the results at parents evening. His score was very high, ie, he passed so the school have said that he will be a grammar school candidate and will support his application.
I was quite impressed by this, I guess it mean they are looking for potential now before tutoring so they can identify the dc's who will thrive at the grammar without struggling.

I failed my 11+ , despite having an above average IQ and going to university! I am absolutely against selective education-I think it is very unfair.
However, if you have the exam, it should be on a level playing field. Every DC should have a couple of papers to get the idea and then do the test. The test shouldn't be something you have to be taught. It shouldn't be manipulated by pushy parents who drill their DC or employ tutors.
It should be as igles2 says-looking for potential to identify who will thrive without struggling.

AbbeyA - I would have failed my GSCE's had I continued to the same school as the rest of my friends did. Not only had that middle school failed to teach me anything, the schools before had too. It was only because I was musical that I was lucky enough to get into a school which was also excellent academically, and because of it's small class sizes the teachers managed to work miracles and teach me basic maths and English skills (I could read and write/spell - but that's about as far as my English knowledge went.........and my mum taught me to read before I started school - but she was dyslexic - at that point undiagnosed so couldn't help me much more than that). Had I gone onto the same senior school as most of my peers from middle school did I would have failed my GSCE's as my basic skills weren't there.

If I had been to some half decent schools before I was 11 I would probably have stood a decent chance of passing the 11+ with a breeze.

How would it have been a level playing field for me having been totally failed by the school system up to that age sitting the test along with children who had been taught proper basic maths and english skills at junior school??

ExactlyguyFawkes. The test should have nothing to do with basic maths and English. They should be IQ only and no one should see them before hand-they should be looking for potential-not what you can already do.
I think it is dreadful to select DCs at such an early age. I also think it is dreadful that almost any parent who is pushy enough can manage to manipulate the system.
People justify it by saying it is a way out for brainy kids from a poor background, but they don't mean it because if they can take the place off that poor brainy DC for their own DC who is less brainy they will!

Abbey A - It's not about being a pushy parent! I certainly haven't 'drilled' my son to support him to pass his 11+, but kids need support to understand the questions as it is something they have never done before.
Although I do not agree with tutoring, some parents maybe feel this is necessary as they feel they cannot support their children to understand as they don't understand themselves.

But do they need support to understand the questions?
Prior to this last couple of weeks I would have agreed and said yes. But what the school has done proves otherwise. DS1 is just 9, he's never seen a non verbal reasoning question before in his life. He is very bright though and sure enough he passed this years actual test easily.
Ds2 is a different matter, he would have to be coached to get him through the test. to my mind that means he shouldn't really be there. I went to grammar school, from a state primary and never had a days homework help or coaching in my life.