Help me decide which pre-prep/ prep to send ds to before I go mad!

[chipmunkswhereareyou]

Have posted other threads on this but on specific issues rather than asking for a general view. Now I need an overall view to help us decide which school to send ds to at 4+ once and for all before I go insane!! We are going round in circles in the chipmunk household.

Option 1:

• All boys
• Lovely school - seems to value the things we as a family find important
• 15 to 20 mins drive
• from 4+ to 13+ so on the upside ds wouldn't need to move schools for a while
• class size around 20

Option 2:

• mixed to 7+ and then all girls (for under 7's it's about a third boys, the remainder girls)
• nice little school
• only 5 mins drive or a cycle away (although scary London roads so not sure this would really work in reality!)
• ds would have to sit the 7+ to go elsewhere/ change schools
• class size around 15

Background info:

1. ds is not a boisterous boy and I think arguably would be happier with girls around than just boys so the usual benefits of all boys don't really apply.
2. we have pretty much ruled out the main local (cofE) state option on the grounds that the classes are big (30) and we are not Cof E and there's a lot of praying going on in there!
3. The schools we'd consider for 7+ are really quite far away and so even though with the local one we'd do well for 3 years with the journey, once he moved to a prep we'd be facing a 30 min journey each way. So short term gain, long term pain.
4. ds is quite sensitive and also a summer born so small class size seems a wise move. He is also quite bright it seems so needing to keep up academically with autumn born girls will not be a problem I imagine (emotionally and socially is another matter).

Erm if you can make sense of that and come out with a solution I'll be very impressed! I feel like tossing a bloody coin (a dreadful way to decide but we just are totally stuck).

Ds' current school is mixed and there is an even spilt of boys to girls (in both year 2 classes) so Ladymuck's point is not always the case- I guess it depends on the school.

Of course, we all think our little darlings are super bright. Of the 2 boys I know with summer b'days, (one in ds' class, one of a very good friend at another boys prep), it is definitely the emotional maturity that is the issue rather than ability. Both schools have made that clear to the parents.

How academic are the schools your ds would be going on to? It might not be an issue if not really competitive.

No Ladymuck is right with the school concerned - there are two classes and around 5 boys in each.

I agree DHToo - we do all think that!

But to answer your question re brightness - it is based on the fact he is 3.3 and is starting to read (just basic words at the moment), can count to 40, has a wide vocabulary etc. and several other observations from nursery which I won't bore you with. BUT he is not at all ahead of average with writing imho so that could be more of a problem, especially given girls are normally better with this anyway. I don't really mind that unless it will be a blow to his confidence?

He is left handed and I guess this won't help. We were however quite satisfied with the head's responses about how they deal with individual differences.

And yes the emotional maturity is likely to be an issue - not in dealing with the teachers or concentrating/ sitting still as he is very good at that. It is more likely to be an issue in interacting with his peers as he is not super-sociable with other children (although that might change of course given he is 3 and a halfish.)

I honestly think I'm pretty balanced and realistic about what he is especially able at and what he isn't (e.g. so-called 'pre-writing')

And of course, he's only 3 so he may change in lots of ways.

So I guess in summary I'd say on that dimension I'm not that worried about him not managing amongst the girls. And actually thinking about it, I suspect he will like the fact that girls, especially older ones, are likely to be that bit calmer and more predictable as he really doesn't seem to like boisterousness (well apart from in his own mad hour most evenings!)

I'm more worried about the stress of the 7+. Dh's view is that doing the 7+ is all a good thing because then we can choose the next school etc. but I just want my little chap to be happy and not being tutored/ doing extra work after homework!

Hmmm I'm still not sure what to do but you are all helping!!!

p.s. DHtoo - neither option 1 or 2 is ridiculously hothousey/ overtly academic.

What about the options at 7+ though, are they very competitive to get in to? If not, probably doesn't matter too much being a summer b'day.

ds has changed a huge amount even this term so, yes, there will be a big difference between your ds now and him in year 2.

(My ds also used to have a mad hour before bed!)

I have to say, that I don't think tutoring is necessarily the way to go. I'm like you, and just want ds to be somewhere that he can be happy. Would hate to think he had been tutored to get into a school where he would struggle.

One of the main local schools has said that only tutor if your school does not prepare the children for 7+ (mostly verbal reasoning). i.e if coming from state school or if a girl whose school does not want them to leave and so, only prepares the boys (like at ds' school!).

The schools that would be possibilities at 7+ vary from those which focus on all-round/ extra curricular activities and don't have great academic results through to one of the best performing schools in the country (in academic terms), so it's hard to generalise and we don't know which of these schools would suit ds.

Option 2 does prepare them for the 7+ although I hear that, as is the norm (sadly imho) in this area, most of the boys are still tutored.

I'd love to think he could do the 7+ without being tutored and that at most, we could just do a bit of extra practice at home with him (but not much!! I want him to play fgs!)

Well to put into a context I would say that the brightest boys in the dcs class were able to tell the time at 3.5 as well as reading and some writing. But even by Year 1 their handwriting wouldn't match that of an average year 1 girl (although their spelling and standard of writing might be a lot better).

I think that there is a big difference between a genuinely co-ed school, and a single-sex school which allows the opposite sex to attend for the first few years. I would also question the extent to which the school prepares the children for the 7+ if the majority of pupils do not sit it.

You haven't listed a co-ed school as an option. Does that mean that there isn't one at all, or just not one that lives up to your standards? The reason I raise this is that parents opt for single sex schools for a variety of reasons, and in particular some parents of more boisterous boys opt for single sex as it serves their boys better (eg at my dcs school they have either PE or Games or swimming daily from reception). Other parents choose it for different reasons (eg it is popular with muslim parents, and with those who are likely to aim for boarding school at 13, or the parents have older girls at a single sex school so opted for a single sex for their sons)). Depending on the choice of schools in your area you may find that one or more of these groups of parents dominate, and if it is the parents of boisterous boys then you may need to consider how this will affect your ds.

I would go for option 1 because:

1. it's difficult changing schools. He will be at a disadvantage to the majority children who joined at 4+ and have to make his way into existing friendship groups

2. There will be enough boys for a football team, cricket team. He will love it.

3. Too many girls might become an issue as he gets older. It did for my son and his ballet lessons which he loved at 3, but was happy to leave at 4.

4. You can be sure that boys will be top priority in option 1 and activities will be geared to them. If there is a problem in school 2, the staff might not make the extra effort to sort it out - after all, they know he'll only be there for a year or two.

5. why go for a nice school when you can go to a lovely school?!

Hope this helps. I am sure he will do well wherever he goes.

LM - more really good points- especially the one about how certain schools attract particular types of parents.

There is a co-ed school but we ruled it out, mainly because it is absurdly expensive (twice as much as option 2) and yet has relatively poor academic results. We wondered what you would be paying for, and then realised it was all the flashy facilities and posh buildings. And it is a 3-18 school with very, very few leavers. The local comp has better results to put it into perspective.

I think that the boys school i.e. option 1 is fairly mixed in every way apart from gender! I know a few boys who go there and have asked their parents about it. There are quieter boys and boisterous ones - a real mix.

The schools in these parts do seem to be single sex on the whole (which is a shame as I'd prefer co-ed).

Would also say that the 7+ is a funny time to test them (though obviously the norm). As well as ensuring that they understand the basics (numberwork, being able to write a story etc), they actually need to understand how to sit a test. My experience of seeing how ds1 did in formal school tests in Year 2 was that he needed to be taught how to do a test as well as how to do the subject. I asked him how he did after his maths paper, and he told me that he hadn't come first, but instead he came second. I expressed some surprise that they had been marked so quickly. Turns out he thought that they were racing - he got the first 25 answers mostly correct and then clearly wrote random numbers for the remainder of the paper. Have to say that I was quite glad he wasn't sitting 7+ - not sure that my nerves would take it!

Presumably, both schools do get children into the more academic schools?

What about other activities on offer?

Ds' school has no specific sports facilties and does not have designated pe staff - class teachers take sports lessons.

They have just taken up football this term but, I know, the local all boys pre-prep has been doing football for the last year at least and has specific sports teachers.

I have sometimes felt that some of the staff would be better at teaching an all girl's class and have found the differences between the girly girls and roudy boys quite challenging. At least in an all boys school, they would be used to them.

I am lazy and would go for the one that is nearest!

It also has smaller classes - seems good

You are right LM. I think ds is being taught how to sit the tests as well as being prepared for the interviews (assuming he gets offered any!)

If he goes to the school that goes up to 13, he can still get into a top performing academic school then; certainly the prep schools I know of put their brightest boys in scholarship classes from about Year 5 or 6.

DS2 is very bright and an August birthday, and to be honest I think would have struggled with doing 3 exams on the same day when he was only just 6.5, regardless of his ability. Remember too that schools at 7 are testing a very narrow range of attainment - reading comprehension and story writing (and the ability to do this to time), maths and verbal reasoning, which pre-prep schools all prepare for. There isn't much opportunity, if a child doesn't get an interview, to demonstrate an incredible knowledge of the solar system or a deep interest in chemistry or their sophisticated sense of humour.

chipmunk we could well be leading one another's lives! i am in a similar quandary, and am driving myself NUTS with indecision! we also have a fantastic state school that we're in the catchment area for, which further complicates things!

from what you have written, i would go for option 1. i am also agonising about all boys and would it not be better to be with girls etc, but i am now thinking it would be a good thing. i would avoid the stress of 7+ testing. if it turns out he is really unhappy there, then you could always move him. although it is currently a further drive, might there be a chance by 2018 that you could move closer to the school?

if we go with our all-boys private option, i will just try to make sure we maintain our current group of local friends, which seems to include lots of girls

good luck and let us know how you get on!

i forgot to say - we are currently thinking of sending DS1 to the local state infant school (reception - year 2) and then transfer him at 7+ to the all-boy private option (was not massively impressed with the state junior school that the state infant school feeds into). i have just heard, however, that to join the current private boys a new boy would need to score at least in the top half of the current boys' results, which does sound like a lot of stress for us all as if he does not get in as i don't think i would be happy with the state alternative. so, i think we might just cough up to start him off at the private school from reception. both his parents were at cambridge so on paper he ought to be bright but i am open-minded about how we all turn out! and he is definitely not counting to 40 at 3.4 years!!!!

sorry for no capitals but 18 month old is hanging off various parts of me.....

re"My local experience of option 2 is that this tends to be geared to younger brothers of girls at the school."

I'd tend to agree and suggest that this may chaneg the dynamics of his peer group fo boys. Their schedules may well be secondary to their elder sisters so you may find playdate opportunites more limited. Also bveign a younger sibling can be a huge advantage in terms of confidence and academics. Thinking about the logistics are there enough other opportunities for young boys such as a sufficient number for football and play dates (5 per class , hwo many classes per year?) as if he has to transfer at 7+ a lack of having been taught football etc may make it harder to integrate. Are the academic expectations driven by those for girls so causing angst among the boys who do not perform to that level ? I thik ther eis a lot to be said for coed from a young age but not at the cost of potential problems later on if a single sex route is still likely to be your choice.

Another consideration for us at the moment when deciding on schools for 7+ is that we have a younger dd (as well as ds).

I know that if ds goes to the best school on our list, it is all boys and I will forever be doing 2 school runs! If he were to go to next one, it is co-ed, and there is at least a possibility that dd could go there too in the furure.

Part of me feels that I should not be making decisions about schools on the basis of convenience but the sheer logitics of getting through London traffic to 2 different schools has to be considered.

Don't know if you have any other dc's but might have a beaing if you do.

Have we all befuddled you even more?

Yes you have DHToo but in a good way!

Just did a dummy 'school run' to the boys' school and it took 20 mins each way and I think would be a bit of a bind.

Also spoke to someone I know of with a son at the boys' school and she was raving about it.

She knows of two boys who have just left Option 2 early to join Option 1 this year (i.e. before age 7) so on the one hand it means there are places available if it all goes wrong with option 2 (the mixed school) BUT it makes me wonder why these boys are being taken out early.

Oh bugger this is a nightmare - it would be so much nicer to do a five minute school run than a 20plus one....

I expect they have taken them out early to avoid the bunfight 7+ exams.

You would soon get used to a 20min trip. May even be other parents that you could link up with to share school run. Our walk takes about 20 mins and it goes in no time. Once you are in the car, another 15mins probably won't make that much difference.

Does make tea dates a bit more tricky though, as it is likely lots of the other children will live further away (as s'one has already mentioned).

HAving said that, we still see a lot of 2 boys ds met up with at nursery but are very slack, generally, at tea dates at the mo!

bunfight

{note to self -always preview message before posting!}

I quite liked the italics .

Am most concerned about the idea of some of the boys leaving before year two as that means there'd be even less than 5! And I also think if you lose critical mass you end up losing them all potentially.

BUT the journey will drive me mad to the other school! I realise it's more like 25mins in the mornings. I think the friend was being a bit optimistic saying 15mins.

Whatalife - what's your latest thinking? It's a total bleeding nightmare sorting this out! Do you also have the distance issue to consider?

That is a tall order expecting them to be in the top 50% compared to existing pupils but I wonder if they might get less fussy once the recession hits pupil numbers more?

Especially given presumably the prep school boys do lots of work that's similar to the tests but the local primary might not work to the same curriculum.

It seems a bit harsh to expect the new boys to have to be in the top 50% doesn't it!

Yes there's been lots of bleeding and blinding in this household over it all!!! And the council forms for state-school preferences came today, just to increase the sense of panic.

Yes, we do have the distance issue to consider, like you. Either it is a 7-minute walk to the 'good' state school, or a 3-mile drive to the private school. Multimap says it's a 7-min drive but in the morning rush I am sure it would be more like 15 mins. I think we could manage this, but I do need to do a test-run like you did. Latest thinking is that if we were to move house X years down the line, it would be in the vague direction of the private school anyway, so the drive would get shorter eventually.

Had a brief chat with nursery-school manager this morning. Her observation was that DS1 seems to really love going in each morning, and that he would, therefore, probably also like going to school, whichever one we chose! Not sure if that is over-simplifying things, or perhaps I am over-complicating the issue!

Surely it's just a good sign that we're putting so much thought and research into this, and there is no right answer!

chipmunks, just picking up on one of the points you made in your op: re C of E

A lot of independent schools have a religious affiliation and do a lot of praying as you put it

I know - have definitely taken that into account. If a school was otherwise perfect I could live with it I guess....but I'd definitely prefer a school which at most is only loosely Christian rather than very.