Preparing for 11+

[judetheobscure]

We live in an area which has 1 grammar school (heavily over-subscribed) and several so-called comprehensives of varying reputation. Further afield are other grammar schools and independent schools. We have been told our daughter is very bright and should apply for a place at the grammar. Entrance is by an 11+ type exam. Should we try and prepare her in some way for this? And if she doesn't get in to the local grammar, how far would be reasonable to travel to another school?

At our grammar school they take a minimum of 10 GCSEs and the mathematicians can - or used to - take up to 12, because they would sit Maths in Y10 and then do Statistics and some other mathematical thing in Y11. (Not sure if they still do this.)

However 10 is very limiting as far as choice goes - they all have to do 1 Maths, 2 English, 2 Science (ie all 3 Science subjects, but it counts as 2 GCSEs), 1 language and 1 Tech (doesn't include IT). This only leaves 3 "choices", and if they want to do 3 single Sciences instead of the dual award it only leaves 2. (But they do mostly get A*-C in the 10 that they take.)

I like the sound of your Comp, Copper! That's how school should be and the fact that in so many schools it isn't is the fault of the publicity given to league tables. Someone should come up woth a broader more informative measure of how "good" a school is. (Come on, girls! )

RobinW I agree about it sometimes being acceptable at Comp not to be too academic. That was the case at my school and for me and I certainly received some bullying for it and also probably underachieved to an extent.

robinw - I wouldn't find anything wrong with different types of school if children could move freely between them if their aptitudes changed with age. The comprehensive system should work fine if it applies setting/streaming and if the most academic pupils are not siphoned off to the nearest grammar/independent school. Don't children in secondary moderns and "so-called" comprehensives feel less valued, especially as there is no chance of getting into a grammar at a later stage? - with comprehensives it is fairly easy to move children between sets if appropriate so there is some motivation factor for less-able but keen children.

Bozza - you have summed up my experience of comprehensive schools. But I do think that bullying is an issue in every school - no matter how bright or well-off the children.

I tried to add a message to this yesterday but the computer ate it up.

I do see where bumblelion is coming from. If you have a child who is middling and might get to grammar, but does it really make sense to push them? Depends on the local non-grammar alternatives I suppose.

I feel in this position - my ds is bright and his teachers always bang on about his untapped potential. When asked, they said grammar was a possibility if he keeps his nose to the grindstone.

But there are lots of bright children in his class. He is not outstanding. Left to his own devices, grammar is but a distant possibility. Extra tutoring will improve his chances, but also raise his hopes. If not successful, how do I stop him feeling a failure and that the school he will go to is second best. It's hardly motivating.

And how's this for a dilemma? As I understand it, if we put his name forward for grammar selection, he is automatically put at the bottom of the list for entry to comprehensives. So if he fails, he takes pot luck.

I am so glad this converstion has started even if it has made me panic more. After reading copper's post about extra tutoring beginning early year five at the latest I am even more worried.

My own school experiences make me pro-grammar yet I recognise that education has moved on loads since the 70's.

I failed my 11+ and went to an all-girls secondary modern. For some reason the teachers put me in for the 13+. My parents had nothing to do with this. I was near the top but certainly not top of my class at secondary modern. There were at dozens of girls in my year who did better than me.

I passed the 13+ and went to an all-girls grammar school. I have vivid memories of the change in expectation. At the sec mod, teachers didn't think we were particularly academic while at the grammar they did. Doing well after school at the sec mod meant going on to do vocational training - catering, typing, etc. Doing well at the grammar meant going to universtiy. Yet as I got to know my new class of grammar school girls I found that most of them were no cleverer than the class of secondary school girls I had just left. Ok I was only 13 years, but I carried this feeling with me throughout my time at school. I was really struck by how unfair the system was and how easy it is to put labels on children.

My experience worries me. I want to be convinced that our local comprehensive schools raise pupils expectations as much as the grammar schools do. It might even be a case of visa versa - perhaps our local grammar school will lag behind here. I want a school where the more academic pupils go to good universities, and this is the norm, not an unusual achievement. I have yet to see our local comprehensives an grammars. When I visit this will one of the first things I'll ask about. I don't care how new the swimming pool is or how many subjects they offer at O level, it's what happens after A levels that interests me.

So, if I feel much less will be expected of my son is he goes to a local comp, I will have to get his nose to the grindstone now and push him to pass his 11+. What is the alterative apart from moving to an area where there is a good comp?

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Bettys
lots of time for schools to change if your child is only 3! But our dd goes to Grey Court. DS1 is about to start and is looking forward to it hugely. DS2 has worked out that at age 8 he has far too many years of education ahead of him to look forward to anything to do with school!

re your last paragraph, batters - that is exactly what I would like to know too.

And then you hear of Bristol University apparently rejecting pupils who come from 'good' state schools and private schools in favour of those who come from average comps. It's a minefield out there.

I've just been reading this thread with great interest ? some of it's quite depressing. It often seems to me that our education system in the UK has been an ongoing social experiment for the last 30 or so years, with huge numbers of children's potential being squandered. DS is a long way off secondary school, but already, many of his friends seem to have encountered the selection process at the age of 4, giving rise to tears and disappointments which I'm sure some of the parents are passing on to their kids ? it all seems so sad!
A good friend has a lovely, bright daughter of 16 who has decided she doesn't want to carry on with her education ? she's so fed up of doing exams ? SATS, more SATS, GCSEs, yet more SATS ? surely education should be about more than this?
As far as my experience goes, I had a very bright, slightly older brother who got a scholarship at 11 to a very good independent school. So that I wouldn't feel left out, I suppose, my parents put me in for the scholarship too, without the private tuition my brother was given. Unsurprisingly, I didn't pass ? I can still remember looking at the pale green exam paper and simply not understanding how I was supposed to answer the questions. From that time, my brother was always "the bright one" while I was "just average", something which I'm certain affected my achievement and self-esteem in later years.
I don't really know what I'm trying to say here, except that we've got to be ever so careful with all this exam business. All children are different, and sometimes it can be so difficult to get it right.

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robin, if you can keep the whole thing low-key your DD needn't ever feel she's "failed" if she doesn't get a grammar school place. I think if you can keep the whole thing at the level of "either you'll go to A or you'll go to B" it makes it less fraught.

I had a similar experience to Frieda but as far as I know was blithely unaffected by it (but then I was already a lazy bugger...). My brother, 2 years older, in a very bright class, was one of 5 or 6 who got places at independent schools under the Direct Grant scheme - this was in 1960, he went to Latymer Upper in Hammersmith. The equivalent for me was Haberdashers Askes in Acton, which my v ambitious (social climber if truth be told) mother pushed for, but I failed to get a place - possibly because the interview with the Head seemed to be quite crucial and I didn't make a very good impression for some reason!

In fact there was some political manoeuvring going on, it seemed that girls from HA's prep school got most or all of the DG places and the following year the balance shifted because complaints were made, but I wasn't`bothered, IIRC! (I went to grammar school and made a pig's ear of that instead.)

Anyway, robin, I know what you mean about the balance between pushing and realising potential. What I have always tried to do with my kids (post primary) is point out that it doesn't make any difference to me what results they get, but that they will kick themselves if they can't do what they want later because they didn't do their best when they could have. I realise that this means less to a 10-yr-old than to a 14- or 16-yr-old but you can adjust the sentiment to suit! (I have also told them that good SATs are more for the school's benefit than theirs, but like the younger children in your DD's class they enjoyed doing them in KS1 and KS2.) So-far-touch-wood it's working. DD2 wants to do Psychology at Newcastle, and they have come up with the highest offer she's had - 2As and a B - and it has concentrated her mind wonderfully! (NB they can continue to fail to achieve their best right up to the end of Y9 without long-term consequences - don't tell them that, but it might make you a bit less frantic! Once they start GCSE work though they really do have to put some effort in.)

Copper - Thanks for that, I've heard good things about Grey Court; you must be very pleased your children are going there. I know I'm thinking ahead but I like to be ahead of the game IYKWIM!

janh - I like the way you present things - ie they will kick themselves if they don't make the most of their opportunities. My dd1 has already said she wants to be a vet!!!!
It's the fear of seeing her "fail" when she's so confident at the moment. She loves the idea of SATs and knows they're for the school not her.

Frieda - I agree with you - but I'd say education has been a social experiment since it first started! I suppose we should be grateful they get an education at all!!!

Thanks, jude - it's always been one of the most important things to me as far as parenting is concerned, that my kids take responsibility for themselves and be as independent as possible as soon as possible, eg with things like remembering what day it is and what they need to take into school etc, and as they get older that it is their homework, not mine.

I am always willing to help where necessary but will point them towards a source for an answer rather than giving them the answer, and encourage them to be self-propelling when it's safe to do that, rather than driving them everywhere.

Hope your daughter doesn't "fail". It is a fine line between encouraging them to aim high and them feeling that if they miss they've failed. If they genuinely do the best they know they can they don't need to be upset, but it's tough if they just had a bad day or something.

I've only just seen this thread because I've been away.
I went to a very good grammar school which went comprehensive in 1975. (I got 1 year 100% grammar). I've always felt this completely wrecked my education. The school I went to is now one you only send your kids to if you have no choice & only gets 18% 5 A-Cs, as a supposedly wide-ability comprehensive, compared to the secondary moderns here that get 25% + 5 A-Cs with the brightest kids siphoned off. No-one can convince me that comprehensives work.
We knew DD was "grammar" almost from when she was born. We had no end of trouble with her from about Y4 on, and by the end of Y5 she was refusing to do any work at school (personality clash with teacher & Head, amongst other things- long story). Took her to a tutor for her maths, at £6 per hour. Found out she had the ability but hadn't been taught a lot of curriculum. Eventually tutor told us she'd caught up, no point in paying any more, she'd pass no probs. Head didn't want to enter her for 11+ but we insisted. She then PASSED the test, but was refused a place because the Head had recommended non-grammar. Appeals followed, Head fighting us all the way. Like Judes DD ours is easily led & had started being stupid to stay with her friend, who was in the bottom half of the class with learning problems. I was scared she'd end up at the high school hanging out with the smoking crowd, not doing any work & be pregnant/on drugs by 15.
By luck we saw an advert for an Assisted Place at an Independent school in the next town (18 miles) & put in for it. They took her on the strength of her 11+ scores & an interview. She changed overnight from an evil spitting demon to a proper little girl once she started there. She is still easily led but was led the right way by the kids she mixed with. She fought to keep up with the brightest, not keeping herself down with the lowest, and she was happy. She got wonderful GCSE grades including 3 A*s. However, all her friends live there, so she spends a lot of time out, & the fees & petrol for the last 5 years have left us with credit card debts of about £20K.
DS1 is dyspraxic & we were told he wouldn't pass the 11+. With hindsight I think he would, but he is happy at the local "High" school & can walk there & back on his own. It has been a good school for him & given him a lot of confidence.
DS2 we took out of his primary after the performance with DD & he got a place at the junior school of the school she went to. After 4 years there he passed the 11+ with no problems & went to the grammar. DS3 we were told had the ability but is lazy & may or may not pass. We also took him away from the original school & he has had 4 years at a primary 22 miles away (another long story). He passed the 11+ with no problems as well & will go to the grammar with his brother in September. He got into a real state about the whole thing from the build up to the test to waiting for the results, which quite surprised me. He thought we'd be angry if he didn't pass!! I had to sit down and explain to him that if he did his best & didn't pass then it wasn't meant to be and he'd go to the same school as his brother. I told him I'd only be angry if he didn't pass because he was being stupid (as I said, he's very lazy), & he'd end up where he wasn't supposed to be & be bored.
We've done this much for our children so that they can't say we didn't try or didn't give them the opportunity. What they do with it now is up to them & they sink or swim as they please. DD transferred to a state grammar for 6th form & has found the transition incredibly difficult. I wish we'd left her where she was but we just couldn't afford it anymore. She spends more time socialising than working & we've just found out that she's on the verge of failing her AS levels. Again, influence of "friends". DH had words with her & explained that if she doesn't sort herself out then she can't do Y13 & will have to get a job. I think that has motivated her!! We can only do so much. In the end, I agree with janh, the rest is up to them.

Tallulah - that's very illuminating - thank you. Terrible to hear that the head at your dd1 school opposed grammar school entry - on what grounds? Appalling!

Basically she was a Leftie who believed all children needed to go to Comprehensive (although HER 2 boys both went to the very best & most exclusive private school in the County!). She put her own political ideals before the wellbeing of the children in her care & I was completely disgusted with what happened. We got our own back by making a big fuss to everyone who'd listen & the Governors made sure that more children got the chance to go to grammar, after we'd gone. I just wish I could have got her sacked. In the end it worked out OK for us (except for the finances), but a lot of DDs peers weren't so lucky.

11+ bond assessment books - have a look online

I expect the original posters's dc are now in university.

Posters'