State or private from age 4 to 7?

[chipmunkswhereareyou]

State or private dilemma.
For the 4 to 7 phase (i.e. the equivalent of pre-prep), we have the choice of a local state primary with a class size of 30 or a non-selective private prep with a class size of 16 at a cost of around £10k per year(both schools say they have one classroom assistant in addition to the main teacher).
We can afford this but of course in the current financial climate there?s always the risk of job losses which would make things more difficult (although we could ride out a short period of unemployment).
The private prep has better facilities but is three miles away, whereas the local primary is a 10 minute walk.
The other consideration is that we would probably look to move him to a private prep at 7+ if he were at the state primary.

When I looked at schools one of the most important things I felt was to consider the head teacher. I looked at 3 state schools and 2 private ones.

One head had diametrically opposed views to mine on education, one reminded me of my student days and one was just so pleased about 'his' school (but didn't actually let me see any children in classrooms having lessons and completely ignored my ds).

That left two - both of whom showed me around whilst wearing tracksuits (at 10am). Both were inspirational and it was a really really hard choice. One was state and one was private. Private won partly because of class sizes but also because of the wrap around care it offered. It meant for the first time in my ds's life I needn't be dependent on others to take/collect him from school and I could still work.

For most of us the decision on state v private is not straightforward. Unlike friends of mine who have never actually been inside a state school and don't intend to start doing so with their dc!

after reading through this thread, it seems the question is really that you want private and dh wants state (for the first 2 years, at least).

if he is in total agreement about a private education from age 7 (and as you say that - redundancy excepted - money is not a problem), I can't really understand his reasons for not starting in the private sector. I wouldn't want to uproot my child from his class after only two years and it seems that others with experience of the private sector seem to think he will be behind.

as for the local friends question - well, that is really part and parcel of the whole private/state debate, isn't it? And I think it is far from a given that, having acquired friends at a state primary school he will remain friends with anymore than one or two (if you make a big effort to keep seeing them) once you move him to a private school.

we are already seeing less of one of dd's very close friends because he has gone to the private sector. It's purely a question of logisitcs - the other friends are on a similar timetable, walk to school, visit the local playground or go to the same school. Therefore we bump into them all the time.

It sort of is Harpo but then again we both do genuinely want to explore the other option openly so the thread isn't solely about the debate between us.

To summarise the viewpoints and pros and cons...
I think Dh would argue that the two or three years in the state school would provide:

• a broader social mix instead of being in private school from 4 to 18 (as I was and I have to say it did affect my view of different social groups until I grew up and got a taste of the real world! However I think parental influence has a lot to do with that)
• a mixed school as the good private prep near here is all boys and whilst after say 7 the children tend to stick with their own gender, before then they do mix more.

Meanwhile my biggest concern is class size (see my other thread) as the local school is a class of 30 whereas the private school has 17 ish in each class. Ds is a relatively shy chap, quite sensitive/ can be anxious about some things, likes structure and seems very bright (but I might just be being an overly proud mum there). So I worry that whilst some kids will cope with a class that big, he won't and will just get 'lost'.

Given this, I'm also not keen on moving him at 7 and disrupting him.

Re local friends, a good chunk of the boys from the prep are from relatively nearby(I know two local mums already with boys in the year above) and also actually none of the children in ds's current nursery class at the state school are within close walking distance from us anyway - it's not like we're on a little housing estate and all the kids play out and know each other.

Don't like the idea of tutoring him at 6/7 to prepare for entrance at 7 as I'd rather he came home from school and relaxed/ played.

On the other hand:

• I love walking to his nursery and would miss that.
• the local school is fine and quite a nice one (good not outstanding according to Ofsted but it's well-kept and the children seem happy) so I'm sure he'd be OK there.
• a couple of children out of the 30 do seem to get into good senior schools each year

Can you see why we're confused!!

chipmunk I still haven't received your CAT! If you want to email direct my email address is [email protected]

IMO regarding uprooting and having experience of it, I wouldn't do UNLESS absolutely necessary, especially if DS is shy. DD1 is very exuberant hence we haven't had a problem with her settling into a new school but I would have been hugely concerned had she been less than a confident child. We did have tears (both of us) but she settled in very quickly but I have had a few days where she has said she didn't want to go too school but I put that down to Year 1 before far harder than Reception more than her not liking her new school.

I am assuming you have visited both schools? If so, what was your gut feeling?

I think the CAT messages only get processed on working days as they're all vetted. Will email you.

I have visited both schools and my gut feel is the prep but DH still hasn't seen the state primary.

What happens if we can't agree?!

The whole debate might be academic (bad pun) as we actually have to get a place at the prep and there's a chance we might not - will know by the end of the week!

If you view it then as what will be will be (i.e. if DS actually gets a place) then maybe your decision will be made for you. Maybe say that to DH. It really sounds like you want him to go to the Prep which I can understand as you are totally drawn in by facilities, class sizes etc but honestly, your DS will be happy (if he is that way inclined!) wherever he goes.

Money comes into it obviously and if I had my chance again, I would definitely have started DD1 off at the State school she is now in, saved what we would have spent on fees and then used that for her future and maybe placed her in the Private Secondary School if she showed huge promise. I would (to be totally honest) gutted if I spent around £150,000 (at least) per child for them to become hairdressers!

I do think the argument regarding mixing with different social backgrounds is a very important one. I got slightly fed up of DD1 only mixing with very very wealthy children. I don't think it gave her the most realistic view of the world.

I wouldn't worry about the local friends thing unless it is a considerable drive to the private school. In my ds's class I would say 90% are very local to us and some within walking distance. In fact I would say the geographical spread is pretty equal to what it was at his nursery (which is in our village but lots of people come from outside the village too).

Should also add that the social mix is the same as at nursery - some very wealthy parents and some not so at all.

this is exactly my dilemma, chipmunks, in fact reading your post I am v suspicious we live in the same area, have dcs at the same nursery etc, the details are so similar ie good but not outstanding school, gets a couple into private schools each year. Only difference is I have a dd
I'd more or less decided on state but this morning took dd to an assessment at a local private school that we'd already more or less decided against. But I'd paid the registration fee so thought we might as well show up, so I could get a second look at the school.
I still didn't particularly like the school, which was just as well as dd freaked out at the assessment, refused to be left. I was brought in and she sat on my knee refusing to do what any of the teachers asked her and only perked up when biscuits arrived at which point she scoffed about 100. All the other children played beautifully, counted to 100 in Greek, refused the biscuits because they only eat raw veg - well not quite, but you get the picture
So I'm very glad I hadn't got my heart set on that school as there is no way she'd be offered a place. But it also made me see how sensitive she is in new situations and made me realise she really might not flourish in a class of 30.
So now I'm back on the private side of the scale. Luckily she's already been offered a place at a non-selective prep school which, like yours, is a 10-15 minute drive away. But like you reading this thread is making my head spin. I don't like the idea of a child being in private education throughout either. If your ds is outgoing I'd rec the state school with the option of moving him if you ever feel uneasy. But for a child like mine I'm really torn. If any state teachers want to come on and reassure me she'd be OK, then great!

I think it is really a gut instinct thing. I ended up choosing the school whose head I liked the best and whom I thought made an effort to engage with my ds on our visit. I also took an instant dislike to the head at our local state catchment school. She had odd views and didn't even know the names of the year 6 children who showed me round despite being head there for 2 years. Contrast that with the school I chose where the head knows the names (and faces!) of all the children in the school even in my ds's class (within week of them starting).

Where roughly do you live juju?
There is quite a big Greek community round here so could well be the same part of London (North)...

That said I suspect we face a pretty common problem in London...

Your dd sounds quite similar to ds - I suspect we're in for something along the same lines on Tuesday at his assessment - oh joy!

Can you give me the first letter/ initials of the schools' names?!?

just to say, my dd is also very shy and sensitive - she has recently settled really well into a class of 30 at our local state primary. Having looked round a few schools, I feel that the important thing is the ethos of the school and the ability of the teaching staff to 'bring out' shy children rather than size. To my mind, a small group can bring its own problems - with less choice of friends and friendship groups, shy children can easily find themselves on the outside. I think in a bigger group there is much more mixing and more chance of your child finding a soulmate or two!

that's not to say that I'm suggesting you should go down the state route, but to reassure you that I genuinely don't think class size is a really important issue for shy children, particularly if he is bright and has a sense of himself, iyswim.

chipmunks, nowhere near you ... but in London. Shame, I had convinced myself you were my neighbour.

If there is a blowout at assessment then at least that will solve the problem for you!

Seriously, actually witnessing what went on really brought home to me how ludicrous assessments for three year olds are. I realised to my horror that a few of the kids there had almost certainly been coached. That was a bit unnerving and also rather sad. To be honest the teachers were pretty pathetic I saw one having a long conversation with a little boy about how his brother was already at the school - she'd got the wrong boy! The kid she was talking to was totally nonplussed, not surprisingly and probably won't get a place for denying he had a brother.

Harpo - I think your point is really interesting.The problem is how can you tell if a school is good at bringing out shy children before your child is actually there? I'm going to see the head of the state primary this week to ask about this but what's she going to say "Oh, our teachers ignore/whip/sneer at the shy ones?" Surely any school will tell you they try to bring them out and you won't know until you get there.

Good luck for Tuesday chipmunks, please let us know how you get on. I actually found today's debacle quite funny, my dd so wasn't having any of it. But I wouldn't have if she was 11, hence the worry in years to come ...

juju - I think it is a gut question really. I had the choice between a smaller school and the relatively large school that I chose for my daughter. The difference in the way that the staff greeted parents when showing them round was striking, as was their response to any concerns or questions I raised. The school has to cope with a large number of children from very diverse backgrounds, many with English as their second language. The happiness in the classrooms was striking as were the positive comments I got from everyone I knew who either had children at the school or had taught there. I felt it was absolutely right for my daughter.

I don't think you need to ask the question 'how do you deal with shy children' but you need to pick up on the other signals that show you the way that people - parents/children/staff - are treated at that school.

chipmunks
let us know how it goes
I've swung back to state again but am going to see the head of the state primary tomorrow. If she impresses me we'll stick with that - or so I'm thinking now by tomorrow I'll probably change my mind! Good luck

Hi - we have just moved our DCs from private to state at age 7. There were lots of reasons for the move, but the truth is at private they had very little to no friends locally. as it was a drive, everyone drove there from surrounding areas, so there was little playground chat. Parents would just come, get their kids and go. If DD had a playdate, it would typically mean a 15 - 20 minute drive. At state, she is mixing with local kids and has a local playdate weekly. DD also sees kids she knows down the park which is great.

Yes, class size is bigger, the education may or may not be better, I am not sure, but the friendship side is critical for the happiness of the DD.

one more thought - obsessed moi!?
As I posted on the other thread about assessments today I visited a very presitigious prep school for work. The children go from four to eleven in classes of eighteen.
Seeing the classes I did think that being in that group for seven years might be claustrophobic and the point I think harpo made about more possibility for friendships in bigger classes rang very true.