arabella weir on why we must send our kids to state schools

[nowirehangers]

Arabella on why she would never send her kids to private schools
What do people think?
Fwiw I find the tone unbelievably smug. I also disagree with a lot of what's being said. I don't think all parents send thier kids to private schools so they can avoid the great unwashed, though some do. I would love my dcs to go to a state school for the reasons she mentions.
What puts me off is the fact the teaching is so often mediocre - as the Chief Inspector of Schools admitted this week. Of course there are so incredible teachers in the state system but I fear there are a lot of second-rate one too. I went to a state primary where the teaching was awful then was moved in to a private school and couldn't believe how much more stimulating the atmosphere was and how much more inspirational the teachers were. I dislike the idea of my dcs mixing only with posh kids, so I'm going to put mye experience down as an unlucky one and give the local state school the benefit of the doubt but if I feel they're being taught badly I will remove them and remortgage the house or whatever to make it work. Anyway, that's my opinion, interested in others.

Dunno, but personally I agree with Arabella. She sums up pretty much my view on state education.

Dh and I both teachers in fairly typical Inner London schools so are familiar with, and have strong views on state education. Never say never, but I really can't see my kids going to anything other than local state schools here in Hackney (for precisely the reasons Arabella has). People and parents are different. For us, we agree with Arabella. But as far as I am concerned, everyone else can send your kids where you want - you don't need to justify it so defensively (a la Martin-whatever).

Umlellala - I think it's just that private school parents often get really, really fed up with smug middle-class state-school parents trumpeting their morally, socially, and politically superior credentials. Maybe Martin Whatever doesn't need to justify it so defensively - but Arabella W doesn't have to justify her decision so stridently either!

(And if she lived near us, maybe her decision wouldn't be the same?!)

I find her argument on the lack of diversity in private schools to be a joke. Last year out of a class of 13 my son was one of at least 8 children where one or both parents were not white british by birth (DH is north african). DS speaks arabic and english. Why does she think that only white british people want to send their children to private school, isn't that racial stereotyping. We live in one of the most deprived wards in London where the local secondary schools get less than 25% of children through 5 gcse's (a-c). I really don't think that 7% of children going to private school really explains why 75% of children in those schools get let down so badly by the system.

The "lack of diversity in private schools" always makes me laugh. There are far more ethnicities and different cultures in DD's little prep school than in the local bigger state primary.

Hmmm... racial diversity, yes - I have learnt that from here I think and changed my view. Social diversity..? (Are there refugees, asylum seekers, parents claiming benefits in private schools?)

I am not smug, I believe what I believe. But if I say that we will send dd to state school, people (in rl)automatically jump and start defending their choices and slagging off mine, and my principles - I don't care what you spend your money on, really. For me, it's a waste of money. (but then I spend a fortune on magazines which make me happy but I know others wouldn't agree).

Yes, I agree - private schools on the whole do not have social diveristy in the same way. There are differences between the children of course, but the starting point is so much higher.

However, my DD does not live in a bubble. She does not exist just within her school community. She interacts with children in other settings, such as clubs, etc. so te diversity is there also. Within my own family my DD is able to gain an understanding of social diversity.

Agree with Hulababy - I have found that to be true in dd's school too.

sorry - that was to the post before

true

Well said Martin Samuel. And as to diversity - there is more racial and social diversity in my son's achieving independent than there was in his state primary, because the fees paid by those who can afford it provide 100% bursaries for those who can't. Like someone once said - from each according to his means to those according to their needs - these are poor bright children who don't have Dr Who as their godfather or a whole hinterland of connections to fall back on. They can flourish in an enviroment where the children are keen to learn and there is no stigma about working hard. Their parents ( some on benefits or in low paid jobs)care about education, which the state does not seem to be interested in, only social engineering.
Arabella is very patronising about council estates - why should her dd be at any risk walking thru one???! DS catches a bus home (wonder if Arabella ever travels on a bus?) and does come into contact with all sorts of people, whom he does not appear to categorise into 'classes' - but doubless some would be those Arabella would consder dodgy because of their perceived status relative to hers...

I must say that I have read this thread with interest as I am somewhat obsessed by the whole issue. Balancing the howlings dogs of 'best for my kids' and my 'social responsibily' is proving tortuous. I went to a large comp and although I did go on to University I always had the feeling I could have done better in my A levels and gone to a top University. I stumbled obsessively googled across a research paper that demonstrated that the difference between selective and non selective schooling, resulted in an improvement of the less able by 4% and a reduction of the most able by 7%. Its focus was on comp's and Grammar schools but I think the principle can be applied to selective private schools too. An earlier post ridiculed the idea of 'private schools run by far away business' but I believe AW must have been referring to GEMS who are based in Dubia but are agressively expanding into the UK market - Proving private eduacation at fairly reasonable prices. Indeed they are capitalizing on this very issue of middle class dismay with state schooling. Between 2001 - 2007 numbers attending private schools increased 5.7%. And yet social mobility in the UK is now at its lowest historical level. Could these two be linked?

Possibly this situation could be arrested by re-introducing the Grammar school system across the whole of the UK. Then those with bright kids who dont wish to fail them, could send them to a state school which has a culture of learning and very high levels of attainment. Equally those children who are not academic could learn vocational skills that would secure them employment.

I don't think anyone is pretending that there are not some very poor state schools, where unless you are very very committed to the comprehensive ideal (and prepared to provide a lot of home support) you don't want to send your children. Personally I think that there is an assumption that private is always better, and I think that needs to be taken with a large pinch of salt (oh and my parents obsessively researched all the schools I went to).

I think it is foolish to pretend that private schools have the social diversity of state schools, but whether or not it matters is I guess another thing. I do think that children who go to exclusive schools can very easily be arrogant (I certainly met many of them as a teenager, and probably was one too), but then maybe that's teenagers for you. I'm not totally sure why we think mixing is such an important factor - how many adults have a social circle that includes people from very different circumstances?

My private days school (one of the GPDSTs) had a lot of children on assisted places, but I still don't think the children there were representative of our inner London suburb - the local girls school was fairly notorious (this in an area with a lot of high earners all of whom sent their children to private schools at secondary). I am glad that I wasn't sent to the state school though, I am sure I would have at the very least struggled to make friends, as I did at state primary. I do think it is important the children are not made to stand out, for whatever reason (dh struggled as pretty much the only working class scholarship kid at his minor public school).

Umlellala - DH was a Refugee as recognised under the 1951 Geneva Convention so I guess that DS doesn't need to go to school to meet a Refugee. Please don't make too many generalisations about people who send their children to private schools - you really don't know their backgrounds.

Chaz, where did I make generalisations? I asked a question.

Nooka, I think that's fair enough that social diversity at school may not be important for some people - although I have made lots of friends who were not from the same background as me at my state primary and secondary. But we all have different priorities for our children I think and I think AW was mainly just saying that don't overlook your local state school, they may offer excellent teaching or a caring ethos - but their results/situation might not be familiar or approachable for some.

I am certainly no expert on private schooling and have learnt a lot on here (and home ed too) BUT I am familar with the state system and am perfectly happy for my kids to go through it - and would rather spend money elsewhere.

I think what has upset a lot of folk is that AW makes the assumption that people chose private for flimsy reasons.
A quick look at other threads on here today show posters unhappy with classes of 42 kids, most of the schools in one area acheiving less that 30% GCSEs, some schools making no provision for G and T, some schools failing miserably with bullying.
None of these are 'flimsy' in my view.

One thinhg about this wonderful "diversity" at state schools is that it seems to me, that in most cases, the various groups barely mix with each other. At my son's school there was almost zero interaction between the Bengali majority and white minority (no birthday party invites / palydates etc etc) and then amongst the whites, the middle class mums and kids tended to stick together and the same went for the working class.

Friends with kids in other urban state schools say this tends to hold true for Afro- Caribbean kids, Somali kids and Pakistani kids and so on as well. At my son't private school, there is no such disctinction. Tamid is a kid who happens to be Muslim ; Winston is a kid who happens to be black. Equally there is no division between the parents who range from highly successful lawyers to artists to sandwich bar owners and builders.

I never hear anyone talk about these divisions in State Schools although Janice Turner in the Times (a fervent state school supporter who, as she has now gone rather quiet on the subject, I'm assuming has sent her sons to independent secondaries) once wrote "of course none of the groups actually mix socially with each other but they rub along".

I find the lack of honesty on the subject astounding given the implications for the children. I would love to know how many Somali refugees or veil-wearing Bengali kids her kids have around on playdates.

I thought she was smug. I went to a state school in central london in the 80s after moving there, it was horrendous. I would never let my kids go through that. Of course there are good state schools and that's what everyone wants, but if you don't have any good ones near you, I don't see why you should send your kids out as some political statement...I hated it, the teachers were terrified, you couldn't go into the loos at all...just walking from the tube to school was harrowing. I don't think I've ever felt that threatened since. But now we've moved out of london with our kids to a lovely village I am totally astonished to find loads of parents not sending their kids to the idyllic local school, but sending them to private schools, that does annoy me. So bit of both I guess.

I am assuming that she is rich enough to be able to afford private tutoring etc if needed.
Friends of mine went to a hideous state school but thanks to their parents managed to achieve what they wanted to.Don't think Arabella Weir came across very well.Have never paid her that much attention and think article very smug and do not think she should be speaking for other people[re why other's are not sent to these schools].

I've now summoned up the sick-bag and have read AW's article.

Ah, so much to be cross about!

"Neither of us was educated privately"

So wtf do you know about private schools?

"most of the least socially and emotionally capable people I know went to posh schools".

Ah, that old chestnut. We privately educated folk are all divorcee druggie nutters. Yeah, right.

"They will learn that privilege is not a birthright, that it has to be earned, along with understanding that they need to earn their place in society and earn the right to succeed."

If AW bothered to visit a private school, she would see that the same applies to most of them!

"They walk through several council estates without even thinking about it - why wouldn't they?"

Well, if they're not thinking about it, AW certainly is. What a piece of repulsive snobbery!

"Compare that with the boys at a nearby private school who are told to take their jackets and ties off before going home so that they are not "targeted" by local roughs."

Well, that certainly happens where we live!

"There must be some truth in that because large numbers of parents now switch their kids from private to state for sixth form because they think they will have a better chance of getting into the top universities from there."

Isn't it because they fear that their children's cards will be marked, and that their places will be given to their "disadvantaged" peers?

"it is more cosy knowing that all your fellow parents have access to, and funds for, three foreign holidays a year, organic food, and Mini Boden clothes."

Ha, bloody ha. We have an annual week in a chalet in Yorkshire, shop at Aldi, and get the children's clothes from eBay.

"everyone knows, deep down, that sending your kids to the local state school is the right thing to do."

Give me strength!

Myth: Arabella Weir is a smug so-and-so.

Oh sorry, that isn't a myth at all.

I think it's strange to say that because you had a bad experience at state school, you wouldn't put your children through it. You are assuming that a) they will be at the same school b) that the school will be the same and not have changed completely in a generation and c) that the child's experience will be the same as yours.

None of these is very likely. I think it's probably safe to assume that all our children are going to have a different experience of education to us, because they are different from us and because in my case at least, what happens in schools is completely different from what happened when I was a pupil.

'I think it's probably safe to assume that all our children are going to have a different experience of education to us, because they are different from us'

• wise words. It seems obvious, but I really think this passes so many people by. Our children are individuals, not clones, or people for us to live our lives through or put our aspirations onto. Many parents get far too hung up about all this.

My grandparents sent their children to the schools they were sent to. My uncle then sent his children to the same schools (all public in this case, not that that is totally relevant). My nephew was so unhappy at the school he ran away several times. I was amazed to discover that my uncle had also been very unhappy there. I also have family friends who sent all their sons to the same school the dad went to (I think he was actually happy there). Their first son was bullied, their second son was bullied but they still sent their third son there. He was expelled for bullying...

So I think sometimes people do send their children to schools with little thought or on flimsy pretexts. Whether that's the local state school because they have no other options (or are unaware there are any other options) or a private school for snob value/because that's where they went/because they have great marketing.

Find theriver - you say 'aspiration' like it's a dirty word and yet for many of us brought up on sink estates it was only our parents' hopes and dreams for us that propelled us to something better. The rest of my peers have grown up and still live there!

I read the Samuel article (loved it.. Ms Weir is related by connections to a vast range of achieving people his argument goes and therefore her children will be fine whatever - most children get on particularly in journalism because they get a foot in the door via connections etc as we all know) whereas his family were poor without connections and all he can do to help them is pay fees. Anyway each of them can choose as they wish and people who think private schools are a waste of money won't pay. It doesn't really matter if views differ as long as people are happy with their choices or women make career and marriage decisions which enable them to educate their children as they think is best for those children.

Aspiration is a great thing. Mixing with children who don't let you learn in class, constantly spoil the lessons and are from homes without proper care (my mother taught loads of children whose fathers were in and out of prison in rough bits of Newcastle and I can't imagine it's too different in the noughties to the 40s in those types of areas). Obviously is good for chidlren to mix with children of different colours, creeds etc because they'll be living and working with people who differ from them and many of us pay fees in part to get that diversity you don't get in state schools where parents buy good places via house prices in white schools but why would one think children should mix in class which children who spoil their lessons as if that's a social good.

I want my children in classes where they are happy and can learn and fulfil their full potential. I don't much care what class the children are from or how much money the parents have as long as their IQ is very high and they are enthusiastic about learning btu I do want to buy an element of segregation because it is bad for children not to be able to learn properly in class and be dragged down to some low grade mean. Why are good private primary schools 1 - 2 years ahead of state primaries - because in those very selective primaries everyone is clever and so the children can do better. It's very simple.

"Why are good private primary schools 1 - 2 years ahead of state primaries because in those very selective primaries everyone is clever and so the children can do better. It's very simple."

Really? I know a couple of real planks who went to a good private school. It was all they could do to get five decent GCSEs and that was with home tuition. Luckily, they came from a very wealthy family so it didn't matter too much.