Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Science gurus please help music teacher

25 replies

twentypence · 05/08/2008 10:14

Question from child

"So if you went into a room with a oxygen tank and then removed the air from the room and played a drum would it make a noise?"

As I had just tricked them into saying ds's 1/10th size cello would play higher than a full size one, by first showing a flute and a piccolo, I feel I need a full and complete answer for this one...

OP posts:
tortoiseSHELL · 05/08/2008 10:16

No, sound can't be heard in a vacuum as their are no particles to carry the wave form. So you wouldn't hear the drum.

tortoiseSHELL · 05/08/2008 10:16

(PS as one muso to another, what is the reason that a small cello isn't higher? I should know this but don't!)

Slouchy · 05/08/2008 10:17

I'm not 100% sure of this but I believe sound can't travel through a vacuum, so the answer is no.

I think.

(Not a Science guru, as you may have guessed!)

juuule · 05/08/2008 10:23

This any use to you?

twentypence · 05/08/2008 10:39

Strings are same thickness, same as a grand piano and a tiny upright.

Whereas with a piccolo and flute it's the air inside that's important.

OP posts:
twentypence · 05/08/2008 10:43

Love the bit about "when there is a battle in outer space you could see the explosions, but not hear them", I think as the battles are imaginary we will allow a further suspension of disbelief.

Thrilling that this was solved in 1660, by a combination of my ds and the surname of the boy who asked the question! Spooky.

OP posts:
IorekByrnison · 05/08/2008 11:11

I'm still confused about the cello. If you have two strings of the same thickness and tension but one is half the length of the other, surely the shorter one will sound an octave higher? Is the tension of the strings lower on the smaller instruments?

snorkle · 05/08/2008 11:15

twentypence, I'm not sure about the string thickness being the same on small cellos - I'm fairly sure it's advances in string technology that enables you to get low pitches on short string lengths. It's worth noting that a 1/10th cello is actually a lot bigger that 1/10th of a full size one as well. Very tiny cellists sometimes start on a viola with a spike added and these instruments do sound an octave higher.

MrsJohnCusack · 05/08/2008 11:18

oooooh that is spooky
Well, I've learny something today - thanks all

MrVibrating · 05/08/2008 11:54

Three things determine the pitch of a string:

Length - the smaller the instrument, the shorter the length and so the higher the pitch

Tension - the tighter the string, the higher the pitch

Linear density - the heavier the string, the lower the pitch

So on a smaller sized instrument, to keep the pitch the same the strings are made heavier by winding with heavier wire as much as possible. Using heavier wire means that the string doesn't have to be much thicker or tuned much looser than on a full scale length instrument, both of which have an impact on tone and the 'feel' of the instrument.

For a more detailed explanation see here or here for a bit more science

(Note: not a 'cellist but a guitarist and a scientist )

popsycal · 05/08/2008 11:55

no

popsycal · 05/08/2008 11:58

A couple of things I tell kids to rememver about pitch

Eg the shorter, narrower the string/vibrating object the higher the pitch - get them to remember it by thinking opf a tiny mouse and a huge elephant
high pitch/low pitch little/big

also I tell my class that I often think of sending them to outer space as then they could be as loud as they want and I couldn't hear a thing
I say it to ds1 often too

popsycal · 05/08/2008 11:59

the thing about tightening strings.......we ppicture a little mouse being stretched and his squeaks getting higer and higher

oh science is such good fun chez popsycal

twentypence · 06/08/2008 01:08

His strings couldn't be thicker because they would then be impossible to press down with tiny fingers. They are not under a lot of tension though - tuning is very hard because the tiniest of turns can make the pitch go up a tone even on the fine tuners.

If he presses on hard with the bow, he can get a whole other note!

Like the idea of sending the children into space!

OP posts:
Blandmum · 06/08/2008 20:31

No you wouldn't hear a sound diatnt from the instrument, as sound needs an atmoshere to travel in. However you would be dead if tyhere was no atmoshere in there, so it is a moor point any way!

If you filed the area with helium the pitch would =change because the speed of vibration of the drum/strings, would change and get faster, so the pitch would rise.

The fater the vibration the higher the pitch.

this is why you sound like Mickey mouse if you inhale helium, your vocal cords vibrate faster

twentypence · 07/08/2008 01:02

I just loved that he thought to take an oxygen mask into the room with him.

Would having a vacuum affect his tank though?

OP posts:
snorkle · 07/08/2008 10:00

A solid oxygen tank would withstand the (lack of) pressure OK I would think, but his body wouldn't - he'd explode unless wearing a spacesuit.

MrVibrating · 07/08/2008 15:05

No he wouldn't explode, although his lungs would probably rupture if he tried to use the oxygen tank.

snorkle · 07/08/2008 15:48

So in the scenario described the lungs would explode then.

snorkle · 07/08/2008 15:48

So in the scenario described the lungs would explode then.

MrVibrating · 07/08/2008 16:12

This is getting somewhat off topic, and I suppose it all depends what you understand from the word 'explode', but as the injury would be internal the word rupture is more appropriate IMHO.

IorekByrnison · 07/08/2008 17:30

I love this thread

twentypence · 07/08/2008 20:55

9 year old boys live off topic - I need all this info - keep going.

OP posts:
MrVibrating · 08/08/2008 00:22

What else would you like ?

twentypence · 08/08/2008 05:58

All this talk of explosions, rupture, what would happen if...

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread