Increasing class sizes in independent schools - does it matter?

[gobbledy]

My ds is currently in reception at a smallish independent school. His class size is 20 boys. We've heard through the grapevine that this is going to increase next year ie some new boys are joining and afaik no-one is leaving.

They currently have one teacher and one assistant. Children with sn tend to have their own helper who is not involved with the rest of the class.

I'd like your honest views - does this matter? My first view is that it does, at least to ds - he is bright but will tend to sit back and do nothing if left to his own devices, and we thought he would basically just be ignored in a state primary class of 30. Really not sure the teachers will be able to cope with more than 20 fairly physical boys! We are not super-rich and private school means sacrifices for us as parents.

Honestly - any views?

Do you know if the school has a cap on class size numbers?

I would ask the teacher or head for more information.

If class size is going above 20 then I would expect to see a TA in the class as well - ask about whether that will happen?

My daughter is at a French private school - which is sous contrat meaning it follows the French national curriculum and school rules. There are up to 30 children in a class, from the equivalent of reception onwards.

The French place a greater emphasis on discipline in the classroom than the British. Unsurprisingly - if classes are of up to 30 children, the children need to behave well if any teaching is to go on at all.

So I think that this is the key - will your DC's school teachers have the skill to keep order in a class of 25/30? Or do their disciplining skills (or perhaps philosophy) preclude them from maintaining order in such a large class?

If class size was key to your decision to go private then of course this matters. But I would be very cautious about what you hear through the grapevine. I would check with the teacher and then talk to the head about your concerns.

IMO at an independant school at primary level if the class size is above 18 you need to ask them some serious questions.

I would have thought 20 is the absolute max and I would kick up a major fuss if it went up. Over 20 they should be splitting the class in two, with 2 class teachers and one teaching assistant (or two teaching assistants if each class is 12 or more).

I would ask to speak to the head, find out what the class size will be next year, and if it is staying at 20 ask for an assurance that it will not rise without the class being split in two.

ps one sign of a school in financial straits is increasing class sizes and cutting back on teaching staff.
hth

22 is the ideal size for a class, allegedly

pph is your dd going to you know where then?

Yes I think it does matter.

DS's school supposedly caps class size at 16 (teacher + part time TA). DS's class was allowed to creep to 17 and then to 18 much to our disgust, although they did increase the TA to more or less full time. They are now aplitting the year group into two classes and gaining a few more children so they will be 2 groups of 10-11 next year.

The increase in class size has made a difference and personally I think small class sizes are one of they key things you pay for.

I'm not a fan of too small classes myself - I had some extremely small classes during my school career and didn't like the intensity of them. And they got a bit boring - not enough going on.

"22 is the ideal size for a class, allegedly "

Surely it must at least depend on age of child and what sort of teaching?

At dd's school there is a maximum class size of 20 in pre-prep and 24 in prep.

This compares to the local primaries of 30 in infants and 35 in juniors.

Anna I agree 10-12 is too small. 14-16 seems to work well.

Fingers crossed it will work for DS as they will still be a single year group of 22ish and will swap around for diffent subjects, so they will be in different groups of 10-12 if that makes sense?

Yes, I think ideal class size must vary according to homogeneity of pupils and age, and teacher:pupil ratio.

My daughter's first year pre-school class was 14 with two teachers for 3 hours of school, and four TAs shared between three classes.

Fourteen and one teacher only would have been stretching things IMO.

stealthsquiggle - I love the swapping around and being in different smaller groups for some subjects.

My daughter's school, as I said, has class sizes of up to 30 but there are three parallel classes per year and the children are put into 7 ability groups for English and Maths - so 12 or so children per group, and children not necessarily from the same class.

In infants I'd agree that between 14-18 is good (we also have a full-time TA in dd's class of 16) and our school caps at 17/18 right through to Yr6.
That said, I think slightly larger classes in Juniors can benefit children preparing for secondary transfer.

I would raise this with the school, gobbledy, as you have only heard it unofficially and it needs clarifying. Good luck. I bet some are leaving though, that news tends not to be made public by either school or family IME

wow. nothing to add but i dream of teaching a class this small!....scurries ff to mark 35 maths books.....>

It matters if this was a major reason for you to choose the private sector, and if the school markets itself as having small class sizes. However you need to weigh small class sizes against all the other benefits from attending this school. Not all private schools have significantly smaller class sizes than the state sector - I have 2 neices at a major private school with class sizes of 27+ and you cannot get in their for love nor money....(actually you can get in there for money but you know what I mean!!!)

Small class sizes are the whole point I pay my fees so it would bother me a lot.
To me the fancy buildings, speech days in summer frocks etc are just trimming - what I want is good teaching in small numbers. 15 in reception and no more than twenty in primary.
As others have said I would check it out as these urban myths do the rounds of Alpha Mums with nowt else to get their knickers twisted about.

The headmistress of a London day school told me that there had been research that had shown that 22 was the ideal class size for primary

Private school doesn't necessarily mean small class sizes anymore - The private schools I looked at locally all had about 20 in the class. My DS2 starts a good state primary in September and they will have 22 in each class. I am happy with that.

Hmmm, thank you for all the interesting comments. I do have concerns about the ability of the teachers to keep order in the class (that isn't a criticism of them, its just that some of the boys are quite demanding). Ds is pretty quiet and would never ask for help or attention, he just does his work then sits back (school have told us this). He's doing well but I don't want that to slide.

I'm due to meet the teacher next week so I will ask for an update. The fees are going up quite a bit for next year too, but the school is oversubscribed - maybe the thought of that extra lucre is just too tempting ...

CD - please tell me that she wasn't head of a school which happens to have class sizes of 22?! My bs-detector always spins madly whenever someone is trying to sell to me.

I'm just amazed at such a precise figure tbh. I would have expected research to indicate an ideal range (say class size between 14-22) rather than a single (and relatively high) figure. Am curious as to how the reasearch was carried out? So much must depend on the background of children, skill of teacher, size and suitability of facilities: how on earth did someone determine that it was 22 and not 20 or 23?!

Fuck nose!

gobbledy - I would just keep a very close eye on things and if you perceive that the teachers are having a hard time keeping order (and I think your concerns are justified), make an appointment to see the head ASAP.

Don't put too much emphasis on the class size. There can be disadvantages in having a narrow range. More breadth can mean more ideas to bounce off, more potential friendships too. Also, a class is only as good as the teacher teaching it. Be wary of teachers who may have gone into private because they see it as a soft option (many do) because they won't push themselves to excellence.
If you have chosen private with class sizes being a factor,and the school is selling itself as having small classes, then you have every right to be pissed off. I would think many private schools are facing similar issues with the current economy. The ones round here are filling themselves up rapidly with the Asian market - lots of recruitment drives to Hong Kong etc - which is fine if you don't mind a totally skewed cross section of society!