Daughter wants Equine Management BTEC instead of A levels after open day

[Brainfreeze1]

Hello, my daughter in year 10 is a hard working student with expected 6 and 7 grade passes. Up until recently she was set on history and English A levels and off to university. All good. Until that is I took her to a land and agricultural college who were having an open day. The sun was shining the setting was beautiful. She is now determined to go there and study BTECH in Equine Management (she horse rides every week).

Whilst trying to support her I can’t help but feel this is the wrong choice and will limit her choices going forward. She loves horses but I always saw this as a hobby not a job.

i wondered if anyone had similar experiences of this. Do I respect her wishes and hope for the best or do I insist she goes to college to do a levels?

As a lifelong horsey person but also a grumpy old person I have to say I'm skeptical about these new Btechs - good old fashioned vocational training is great for those that need it but bTechs aren't that. I think these fancy colleges sell these kids on a glossy brochure and the promise of getting to spend their college years having a lovely time playing with horses then leading direct to a well paid future job which of course sounds more attractive than sitting in a classroom doing boring old normal A Levels - the lovely college years may well transpire (although not always), but IMO the real problem is the desirable jobs at the end of it just aren't there for these kids (and I would say the same of a lot of similar courses for other interests e.g. sports/football management, theatre and media). The kids can then find themselves having, well not quite wasted two years as they will usually have picked up some extra skills, but either not really actually qualified for the jobs or onwards course they want and going back to do A Levels/a degree anyway or having to take quite a low level job that they didn't need the BTech for so what was the point (other than to make money for the college)? Or they can have established that actually working in the equine industry isn't for them which is fair enough but they don't get the two years back again and the BTech isn't massively recognised as a strong qualification for other paths.

There are such things as reasonably well paid jobs in the equine industry obtainable for those without connections and who aren't super-talented riders, although few and far between, but these are usually more highly skilled e.g. vets and vet nurses, physios and/or business management type roles in larger equine businesses particularly in the racing industry which is where the majority of the money is - or there are plenty of more hands on jobs like grooms/yard hands, riding instructors etc, but these tend to be really low paid and very hard work. Neither pathway really needs a BTech in Equine Studies though. If the former is what she wants she'd definitely be better off doing normal A Levels then potentially could look at an Equine degree at the RAC or Hartbury or similar (although personally I think those fall into a bit of the same trap as the BTech and she'd be better of doing a generic degree either in Vet Medicine/Vet Nursing/Physio or Business Management or Accounting or similar then look to specialise in horses later). If the latter she'd be better off looking for a working pupil or apprentice position and getting as much hands on experience as possible (I know equine college does offer some of this too but at least they earn some money if working as well as actual real life work experience).

I get how hard it is though to get teens to take advice - do you have a good relationship with the yard owner of where she rides or someone else working in the industry who can give her some honest home truth about what it's really like and how they'd advise her to get started? In speaking to her I definitely wouldn't talk in terms of putting her off a career in horses altogether and more about thinking longer term about where she actually wants to get to and is this BTech the right path, or would other options offer more flexibility

Is she a reader? Has she read the Jill books (A Pony for Jill etc)

Pony Jobs for Jill is worth a read - IIRC Jill takes various jobs at stables, gets exploited, promises are broken, and she leaves for an office job at the end.

No degree bar perhaps medical or law will determine what career a person will eventually have.
She is looking to do something she will love. Which is no bad thing.

This sounds like one of those Ladybird parody books, Jill Mucks Out for Minimum Wage Nd Gets Exploited 😮😂 ?? I remember reading all the Jill's as a child but I don't remember this being the end to the series, I always imagined she'd end up running a riding school or similar? Bit disappointing to discover she had to shelve her dreams and get a boring corporate job like the rest of us horsey girls, please tell me it's a modern addition not 'canon', isn't any harmless fantasy sacred?

@maxelly What do you mean 'new' BTECs? BTECs have been around for years. (It is the T levels that are new). My DD did Animal Care and it seemed to be 'good old fashioned vocational training' to me?

My parents refused to let me, it back fired and I dropped out of my degree, I’d probably have been sorted in life a lot earlier if I’d studied horses.

i know a lot of people with equine science degrees who have ended up with well paid equine adjacent jobs, groom is not the only job available.

As I say to my kids, I don’t mind what you do, as long as you do something and enjoy it.

Also, having been very negative about the bTech, I would just reassure you also that while it's in many ways 'better' and easier if kids do their qualifications at the standard times and with their peer group, i.e. A Levels or college 16-18, uni 18-22, professional qualifications in their early-mid 20s, easier in terms of financing/funding and also socially being with their correct age group, it's also perfectly possible and even common to go back and have another go in their 20s or even later if they do discover they've taken a wrong turn.

Schools and careers advice generally does seem to put a lot of pressure on kids to choose a path and get it right first time, I understand why as no-one wants wasted effort but equally I think there's a place for experimenting a bit without feeling as though you're determining the whole path of your future life at 16 which is absurd when you think about it, 16 year olds' capacity for sensible decision making is notoriously piss poor! In reality there are very few roads that will be entirely closed off to them by spending a few years on an unsuitable course or in a job or even NEET, it may be slightly more difficult to change paths later but not impossible. So do try not to panic even if you don't feel the BTech is right for her, all will not be lost...

I had a look at the specification and to be honest, it looks fabulous for someone who loves horses. It's also great that she has found something she wants to do.

Do you have any contacts in the industry? If you don't, I do think it's unlikely that she'll progress very far in that direction. However, she could go on to degrees which do not require specific subjects (at universities which accept BTECs) or degrees related to animal science, behaviour and care.

I would ask the college what the students on this course go on to do when they leave. I would also ask if she could take an A-level alongside the BTEC (unlikely though because any free days may be filled with work experience). I would also ask if they get a qualification if they quit at the end of year 12. Depending on how they teach the units, that may be the case.

To be honest I would let her start / do year 12 and see. Think of it as a horsey gap year, maybe? If she changes her mind she could probably still get out a qualification at the end of year 12 and then switch to A-levels but continue at the same sixth college. Being a year older won't matter at all (to anyone).

I can assure you when you're as old as I am everything since O Levels seems new 😂I'm sure they have been around ages. I'm also not blaming the colleges per se, I'm sure they're following government strategies and where the funding is which is fair enough, and I didn't say the kids get nothing useful from the courses at all, even if they literally learn nothing (which I doubt) I'm sure it does lots of kids good to be in a different out of school/classroom environment and outdoors/with animals etc. It's more the marketing of it I object to I guess, what I do think has changed in the last few years is the colleges around us really pushing these courses as being more than basic vocational training leading to an entry level job in horses, the 'glossification' of it all and the promise of a future I just don't think they can back up, for equine courses particularly (animal care more generally I don't see marketed in the same way) - I live in a quite affluent horsey area and they seem to really target those middling-academic kids with well-off parents prepared to give a level of financial support, who probably should do A levels for the best prospects, on paper at least, or who if they really want to give riding a go professionally need to take the full gamble of going working pupil type positions (which will work out very rarely), but instead they divert them into this sort of middle ground where they come out with a paper qualification that isn't really equivalent to A Levels if they do end up wanting a more academic path, and some vocational skill/experience but that isn't as good in the eyes of employers as actual work experience. I can only guess cynically it's because the equine courses are good income for the college?

BTECs have been around for over 40 years.

I did two BTEC animal care courses that was just for fun really (wasn't all roses as I was bullied at college) but in the end I decided to go for a job after leaving college at 18. I knew that to get a decent job to live I would have to be in a vet surgery and I tried work experience there, but didn't enjoy it. It was a decent two years and I enjoyed it, but I don't regret going into the civil service afterwards. I still enjoy doing things with animals and horses outside of my working days.
BTECs are A-level equivalent courses and whilst it might not be the exact same subject, it does demonstrate that the individual did do an A-level course.

Totally agree with this in general, but it absolutely doesn’t apply to a job with horses. The equestrian sector is well known for long hours and dreadful pay. I’m speaking as a qualified instructor who worked with horses. Management degrees in equine subjects are not that respected in the industry either. I think it’s one of the most pointless degrees you can do. Much better to work in a well paid, non equine profession and buy your own horse.

I thought the Jill books ended with her becoming a writer like her mum . Frankly as a 70s child the Jill books were hideously dated and unrealistic so I’m not sure they are remotely relevant today 🤣

Can I ask all the instructors on this thread why you say it's low paid? I pay loads for my daughter's lessons 😬

there are other expenses that would probably make the cost of lessons just about break even

@RockinCara And many young people will never get near that goal. Doing history at an average university often doesn’t lead to much. Own house in some areas requires a very big salary. Not the min wage salary lots of grads get. I think you are living in a different century.

Choose a horse job carefully. It can lead to decent pay. You have to follow the money!

I think BTECs absolutely have their place and I would not push a young person down the A level route if it isn't what they want to do as it is tough and if they're not committed may well not lead to success. And, depending on the subject to some degree, doing an A level from a 6 at GCSE could be a very big challenge. So I think it is sensible to consider alternatives.
But this does seem very specific and I would say that in the current economic climate particularly, keeping as many doors open for as long as possible is a good idea.
And your DD is only, what, 14 or 15? I think that lots of us thought we knew exactly what we wanted to do at that age, and often those ideas were a bit unrealistic. But if you can't dream in your teens, when can you, and most of us end up making more pragmatic choices in the end.
I think at this age anything new, different and not school looks very attractive to many kids, and they don't yet have the maturity to think very far ahead. I think I'd take the approach of taking her to different colleges etc, maybe even some University open days, look at lots of options and discuss where they might lead. Try to give her lots of ideas of what her future might look like, as showing positive alternatives rather than stressing the negatives of this specific course may be more effective in getting her to reconsider.

It's still very well paid. £50 per half hour lesson - even if the venue hire is £25 p/h, you can have lessons all day and make quite good money. It's also not as onerous as many equine jobs are.

I believe the author wrote it because so many girls were writing to her about wanting a career in horses, and she wanted to put them off. It was written at the same time as the main series.

I've only read it once as it was so depressing!

Well for a start £50 per half hour / £100 per hour on your own horse (as opposed to at a riding school where you have to take into account the costs of the horse) sounds well above average, that must be an experienced higher level coach, BHSI or similar, so towards the top of the profession rather than 'average'? Also even if they can fill a full day of clients at that rate so earning say £1000 a day, £450 'profit' after you've deducted venue hire, petrol to get there, insurance and memberships of professional bodies etc - I highly doubt anyone but the most sought after manage that level of clients 5 days a week every week. Most probably manage to fill their diaries at weekends then probably do 2 or 3 daytime or evening clients a day midweek - which entails less cost for arena hire but more for travel and less profit overall. So not quite the same as earning £450 a day in a conventional Mon-Fri 9-5 job.

But as I say, your average instructor probably works at a riding school, where of the say £60-75 per hour the clients pay, more than two thirds of that goes to the riding school for the upkeep of the ponies and facilities and the teacher probably earns £20 per hour or less - if you extrapolate out from that to working 40 hours a week it adds up to an Ok full time wage, above minimum wage anyway (albeit not I would say great considering the unsocial hours and being outside in all weathers etc) - but the majority of instructors don't actually get a full time wage as again there is demand for lessons weekends and evenings but not weekdays, a lot of schools still use a self-employed model where despite having to be able 40 hours a week they only get paid if lessons are booked, they have to pay their own pension and NI out of that, they don't get paid holidays or sick pay (and given the risk of injury inherant in the job, sick pay is important) - overall it doesn't usually add up to a conventionally 'well-off' or financially comfortable lifestyle. If you love horses and the general horsey life and the job in other ways, and don't want or can't do a traditional desk job it can work out great, particularly as you often get accomodation for yourself and free or discounted livery for your horse as a part of the package so I'm not saying they're all poor exploited souls, but in pure financial terms it isn't lucrative work except for those few who get to the very top of the tree...

16 is not the age to be making decisions that affect the rest of your life. 16 year olds are notoriously idiots who can't plan long term.

Being allowed to try, fail and then try something new should be absolutely acceptable.

But the freelance instructors can’t all be working back to back 5 days a week , I’m in the SE and there are hundreds of freelance instructors and I can’t see there is work for all of them

@maxelly @tinyspiny yes these are quite high level jump coaches, but the pony party instructors at our yard also seem to be extremely busy and expensive!

I agree that trying to make a living out of other people's hobbies is really hard. My DD teaches a dufferent thing. People think she must be making a fortune as her lessons are full with a waiting list and parents perceive it as expensive - which compared to scouts or similar volunteer run activities it is. But after all her overheads, particularly venue hire, she makes very little, especially after you consider all the hours of admin, CPD etc that the parents don't see. She has an office job during the day which is what really pays her bills.
Obviously some people do make good money out of teaching sports and other hobbies but in my observation I'd say that they are mainly either those who own their own premises and employ other people, which is potentially achievable in time but very hard, or those really at the top who coach professionals/aspiring professionals. I think it's very hard to make a living wage as a "normal" instructor in an average place. I can't think of anyone I know who teaches any kind of hobby - sports, dance, music - who doesn't also have a day job. Not that that is the end of the world, my DD loves teaching even if it isn't particularly lucrative and she's very happy, but I think it's something that any aspiring instructor needs to be aware of.
Lots of young people dream of making their hobby their profession which is very understandable, and for some it will work out fantastically. But not for the majority unfortunately so they need to be wary of putting all their eggs in one basket and always need a Plan B.

@MrsAvocet My DD attended a dance school where the owner taught and it was her main and only business. Another teacher was a paid employee. Other dance teachers have been visiting teachers to schools. They aren’t doing another job either.

Horses and horse training have massive overheads and obviously need the right facilities to do their job. I think equine management can lead to a job but precise skills are needed for each equine environment. A diy livery yard isn’t a top racing yard with multi £ million occupants! There’s money in the latter but not the former.