Law/ Degree/ A-level - employment

[lawquestion]

Dear All,
my DS would like to work in law and hoping to choose this for a level and also work towards a degree later on.
I’ve heard some conflicting information recently, stating that City Law firms prefer youngsters not taking law for a degree… could that be true? Seems madness

many thanks for the replies in advance

I wouldn’t choose law A level. law is currently very competitive. The grades will matter more than the subject. What grades is he likely to get at A level?

Don't bother with A level Law.

A law degree is fine. Law A level is a bit of a waste of time. He’d probably do better doing history if he wants to do a law degree.

DH teaches law at uni, he would advise students not to take Law as an A Level. Notably, in our city where there are 2 sixth form settings that are in the national top 10 neither offer Law at A Level. There is only one sixth form locally that does and it's a small and not highly regarded one.

Don't encourage him to do Law A-level. Generally, the 'degree subject' A-levels are not as useful as the standard subjects. I'd do History instead.

I interview training contract applicants in a large city law firm. Anecdotal only, but from what I have seen law degree students tend to perform better on the practical elements of vacation schemes and assessment centres but not having a law degree is not a barrier. I have no idea if the current trainees in my dept (there are about 10 of them) did law or not. I don’t think it’s true that city law firms prefer non law degree candidates though!

It’s complete nonsense that law firms prefer non law students. As the pp has said, the assessment centres and the assessment process in general is often a bit easier if you’ve done a law degree (although doing a different degree is not a barrier as such). Doing a law.degree also means he can try to find work as a paralegal whilst looking for a training contract. That’s far less achievable with no legal knowledge (even paralegal jobs are ultra competitive)

Doing a non law degree will also cost you around an extra £30k unless you secure a training contract

Re A levels he will need top grades to be a lawyer (realistically not lower than AAB but in most cases higher) so do whatever he will get the best grades in. Law A level is completely unnecessary to a law degree but it’s fine as long as he will get an A. The grade is what matters. If he isn’t going to get top grades then he’s wasting his time I’m afraid. There are very few jobs and an absolute glut of applicants. There are oxbridge graduates struggling to get training contracts. Firms are getting hundreds of applications for each place and need fewer junior lawyers than ever due to AI.

Also keep in mind that unless he is very academic/detail focused/logical/excellent in exam situations then he’s probably wasting his time anyway I’m afraid. Half of those sitting the SQE fail it.

Law firms are generally against letting AI have much impact. There are exceptions, but like most information based professions, AI is very cautiously used.

We are using AI more and more in law firms. It saves hours of time. Many law firms actually ask questions as part of their training contract interview process about how you would prompt AI to assist with a particular research question. So this is incorrect.

Of course it has to be used with caution. I was actually at an event the other day where a discussion was being had amongst senior lawyers about how universities are failing law students by not teaching them about how to use AI to assist with research and drafting.

There's plenty of how to use AI in research classes at Cambridge. However, they can't use it to do their work for them and it's important to teach people how to pick out fact from fiction with AI. It can be a research tool but using it to write for you is not the same thing or desirable.

Nobody said it was

@lawquestion DD is a barrister but quite a few of her friends are city lawyers. If you look at summer city law internships, they might offer 2 sessions for law degree students and 1 session for non law degree students. The reason for this is they don’t want identikit employees. People with a MFL degree, History degree or any academic subject where dc is a high achiever is fine. My DD did the law conversion course and it’s around £12,000. Several of her friends studied History and she did MFLs.

City Law likes high flying people. So brains matter I’m afraid. As does ability to work long hours and attention to detail, as well as personality. This is why Oxbridge people can do well. A couple of DDs friends have a LLM from Cambridge too. If dc work for an American firm, expect extraordinary long hours.

For A levels, academic subjects are best. For example, Cambridge recommends 2 from English lit, History, MFLs and Maths. Obviously 3 could be from this group. They have a long list of acceptable third A level subjects and they do include Law. He might also consider Economics, Politics, Philosophy etc. Essay subjects which require reading and analysis are good. He needs to demonstrate intellect and work management. Many dc doing law are also multi talented.

Then consider university. A few require an entrance test, the LNAT. These are the premier universities for law. London firms do recruit a lot from Oxbridge but unis like Durham, Bristol, UCL, LSE are popular. If he is ok working regionally, then add in Birmingham, Manchester, Nottingham - these don’t mean he could not work in London of course! Regional firms don’t recruit many from Oxbridge.

Some areas of law are less competitive. Criminal law for example. Developing and following a strategy to get where you want to be matters! Tick the right academic boxes and quite a few others, and you have a chance! I agree that if academics is too average, it’s probably not worth dreaming.

Hardly any law firms split their recruitment by law degree/non law degree. This is misleading.

What a levels is he looking to? I would advise against law and go for 3 academic ones including history. Has he got a specific type of law that he would like to do?

@Ciri I said summer internship and of course non law grads are recruited!

Here is the info from Slaughter and May. They look at non law grads. It’s always recognised other academic degrees have value.

You need to read more carefully.

I did not say law firms don’t recruit non law graduates.

You said they offer different internships to law grads and non law grads and that they offer different numbers of places to each on the internships.

Hardly any law firms do this (I know of two). It’s very unusual. Most firms recruit via a multi stage process (many only recruit from their vacation schemes). The schemes are open to law and non law graduates and it’s the same process for each - generally a lengthy application form asking you to answer a number of questions on your motivation etc (circa300 - 500 words for each question) then a logic/reasoning test then a situational judgment test then an online AI interview then a written exercise then an in person assessment centre. Numbers are whittled down at each stage.
Both law graduates and non law graduates take exactly the same tests.

My barrister friend basically said those from wealthier backgrounds who can afford to do the degree they want followed by a law conversion do that, whereas other students stick to a law degree due to finances. This is for those who know they want to go into that profession from 18. My DD chose to do her Law A Level because she wanted to and is starting her Law degree this September. She’d have loved an Arts based degree but doesn’t want to do a law conversion.

I guess my advice is to do the degree you want if you can as different roads take you to there eventually

grwat comments and posts, thanks ever so much. Academic ability won’t be a problem, currently at gcse stage looking at 9s in economics , history and English so should be allright.
I was just really confused as I’ve never heard such a non sense!

so a level law is not recommended, interesting…
what else you guys recommend to add to the profile? Currently public speaking, dof e, leadership roles in high school are there..
thanks again, very helpful.

I'm a partner in a city law firm and help with our trainee recruitment program. I would definitely advise against doing A level law. Economics, History and English would be good subjects if that's what he enjoys, but really any are fine. He should really be looking to get all 8s and 9s at GCSE though.

It doesn't matter what degree he does. Do law if he would find it interesting and enjoy it but if he prefers something else that's fine. I have a science degree, I have. colleagues who did music, maths, english, history etc.

At GCSE stage I would also say just do the extra curricular stuff he enjoys, whether that is sports, arts, music or whatever to show that he is well rounded. Then look for commercial/work experience as he gets a bit older.

Nobody needed this deflection comment

It wasn’t a “deflection comment” whatever that is supposed to be. I was agreeing that AI skills are not a substitute for academic skills. However your comment that law firms don’t use AI was incorrect. We are using it more and more and trainees need to be able to use it effectively. It is also leading to a reduction in the number of paralegals/trainees required and this will only get worse. It’s not a career to start unless you’re really resilient and committed since getting a job is very difficult and will get even harder as specialist legal AI tools evolve.

Here’s one example of internships. I forgot to attach it!

@lawquestion Does he truly want city law? Does he understand the grind that it is? I’d certainly look at resilience. A level Law is not discounted by Cambridge (but most dc won’t have it) but I’d say his choices are very good.

His big decision is law degree or not. If it’s Law, he should look to the LNAT universities. They are more selective. So look at Oxbridge, Durham, Bristol, UCL, Kings, LSE or Glasgow (but avoid Scottish law). Then be sure to be a high flyer and be commercially aware. DD didn’t know her lawyer friends at university but the ones I’ve met thrive on hard work, are great fun and personable and are clearly very bright!

The law firms do indicate what type of person they are looking for. I would also look at Chambers Student for a good overview of legal careers. Many dc start to form preferences at university and of course the uk produces over 25,000 law grads a year. Then there’s all the other bright dc too. So getting through the selection hoops is hard!

At university, take an active role in law societies, take leadership roles and do some law related work if possible. Understand about the legal business world and be familiar with the firms you might apply to. Look at a masters in law and find one in commercial law.

I didn't say no firms do it, I said very few. I know of two off the top of my head (both large firms who take a comparatively large number of trainees) but it is unusual for the schemes to be separated out like this. In most cases law graduates and non law graduates will be at the same assessment centres and on the same schemes. In most cases firms will only run one (or possibly two if they are a large firm) schemes per office.

I know you love to frequent the law threads (posting style is very clear despite the name change) but when you give out incorrect information that is unfair on those reading it. Your DD is a barrister and she qualified some years ago now. So you don't have any experience of the process. Even though your DD might have friends who are lawyers, they also qualified some years ago. The situation for students now is very different to the situation just 3 or 4 years ago.

It is now sometimes easier for law graduates to get through the application processes and this does mean that you will probably have more law graduates than non law graduates on the schemes. This is particularly the case because non law graduates have to apply in their final year when they have lots of other pressures on due to university finals whereas law students apply in their second year.

Personally, despite being a partner in a law firm and also a non-law graduate I would advise kids nowadays to do a law degree if they want to be a lawyer. It doesn't mean that firms don't take non law graduates, of course they do, but there are various advantages to doing a law degree.