School meal changes - good idea for reducing health problems or controlling of diet?

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c624vezv52do

I think we have been here before with Jamie Oliver some time ago. Ideas like this in my opinion look great in paper and an easy win for government but implementation is a real challenge.

In a school I used to govern there were losses taken by catering companies in the school I offering healthy food with a lot of children avoiding healthy choices by taking in packed lunches or indeed not eating, overloading with carbs after school.

For a lot of deprived areas the aim maybe should be to ensure children get a t least fed without perhaps concentrating on food quality. I don't think you can necessarily change dietary culture easily or by essentially force. You don't want to inescapably antagonize parents and cause a meritocratic burden on teaching assistants if they have to for instance check packed lunches.

Good idea on paper but I am sure there are seasoned cynic a rolling their eyes a bit at this one.......

Yep, as a former Paris dweller, the French do take their lunchtimes a lot more seriously and rightly so.

My school is looking at staggering lunchtimes too among a list of other options to change the school day. The issues for us with staggered lunches would be who is supervising lunchtimes while teachers are teaching? Is it going to be teachers who are meant to be free or will it just be left to unqualified people like lunchtime supervisors, TAs and LSAs? SLT cover lunch as it is, but would they have the bandwidth to do it for 3 hours straight in a day? Also, the canteen will need a lot more staff to clean between sittings and to be there to dish out food for three hours.

So again, it comes down to staffing, which means more funding is needed, which never seems to happen. It is just "we have decided kids shouldn't have paninis for lunch - off you go and sort it"

I went to a private secondary in NZ during the early 2010s, we got an accreditation (or something similar) for being a healthy foods school. Yet Paninis, wraps that had very little vegetables and stuffed with cheese, nachoes (beans only), garlic bread, spaghetti straps and cheese on buns were the meals on offer. Sure it might be marginally healthier than chips, hotdogs etc but could hardly be described as nutritional.

I echo others that even if you could cram hundreds of students into the dining hall there is no time to eat a full sit down meal, potentially you need to back to your form room/lockers, then there will likely be a queue at the loos, queue to get your food, then sit downb. Some kids might go to debating club/art room/music room etc.

Maybe there could be improved offering of healthy snacks but very few kids will eat it and it's just money down the drain.

Will do bugger all. Because children are at school for 190 days a year and 190 meals out of the 365 x 3 = 1095 plus snacks most children will be having is not going to change a thing.

I would support this. My son is about to leave secondary. I cook healthy meals at home and he knows what a healthy diet is, but he has spent his entire time at secondary eating rubbish every break and lunch just because he can.

Food in large settings (schools, hospitals etc) is largely awful in this country. I dont know why we have such a bad attitude to food in general but I can't see kids at school suddenly going for the healthy options when they aren't used to eating them at home.

There's quite a snobby attitude towards cooking and being interested in food, it's that weird British thing of being seen to think you're better than others if you happen to care about it.

Another difference in France is that teachers teach - and that’s it. They don’t supervise morning or after school clubs, they don’t supervise at breaks or lunchtimes, they don’t deal with lateness / discipline outside the classroom. In secondary, the vie scolaire and surveillants (non teaching staff with a responsibility for discipline and pastoral care) supervise all this in secondary, and in primary TAs supervise in the playground. ‘Dinner ladies’ and indeed the chef are present in the cantine at all times and keep pretty strict order. There is little to no cleaning between sittings - students self serve and take their plates away, they eat off trays so there isn’t much mess on the tables. And they get a bollocking if they spill food on the floor.

DH taught in NZ schools. I remember him telling me about the Healthy Heart Menu., where a reduced-fat meat pie got a little heart-healthy sticker, while a plain apple got nothing 🙄

There used to be rules, then the Conservative gvt decided to prioritise profit for private companies over children's health and the rules were relaxed but actually in Primary schools where there is very little choice of meal, the new rules won't make much difference. Oven chips etc have been served for years because it's easier/safer than deep-fat frying.

This and everything you've posted about is all great! Well done France. But this isn't France and we don't have any non teaching staff responsible for discipline. We have TAs who although amazing people and often very educated, get paid a pittance for an already demanding job. If we started asking them to monitor lunches unaided, they would (rightly) leave in droves. If we want TAs to take on responsibility like that, we would need to pay them more and have more of them which would mean we need.......all together now, more funding 😁

School.expectations and knowledge around food and nutrition set a pretty low bar in the UK.

We need to.separate education from social and health care.

Is banning the once a week fish and chips and let’s be honest it’s usually fish fingers, really the answer to childhood obesity. I’d fully support always trying for healthy options but surely education around diet outside of school is at least as if not more important.

I know, I’m sorry for going on and I will stop There’s lots that I don’t like about living in France, but the food / school food culture, the fact that teachers aren’t expected to do every single bloody thing in schools, and the universal funded childcare just blew me away when I experienced them.

I think it’s very sensible, and am frankly appalled that schools have been serving deep fried food. Having deep fried food on the menu conveys the message to kids that that’s normal food that you can eat every day. Whereas in fact it’s the sort of thing that should be eaten very occasionally as a treat, if at all.

Actually this isn’t true. French teachers earn less than in the UK but admittedly the cost of living in the UK is generally higher. Except, ironically, for food. I think food costs as a proportion of salary are higher in France.

The difference is a cultural attitude towards food as many have pointed out. Yes, there is some amazing food in France, and a lot of absolute rubbish in the UK, but the way the British have embraced different cuisines and experimented with fusion etc is unique. Why can’t we célèbrate this and also make our approach healthier? If we need to start a health revolution in the UK it needs to begin in schools -one of the most important socialising experiences any of us in the UK will ever have.

Not at all! I used to live in Paris and there were many not so great things (dog shit on the pavements and men accosting me in the street all the time and I am really not that attractive). But their attitude to proper mealtimes is great.

This every time

Lunchtime has been squeezed so short there is no option for mindful eating, or of foods which take time to eat (crunchy, whole foods). Queuing for the food, queuing for somewhere to go, queuing for the toilet, then bang, back to the next lesson.

I did think of this aspect. It may not be a like for like salary difference. But the key point is that almost every TA in the UK could not maintain an average household on their salary alone, so asking them to be in charge of the whole school while the teachers only teach would not fly. The same goes for most school office staff, first aiders etc. Teachers hardly get paid a fortune here but non teaching staff get paid a ridiculously low salary. It is justified because they only work school hours and term time and I do get that, but it just isn't enough to keep people in the job without a liveable annual salary

But pizza and sausage rolls are the meals someone's dr sided on too. So it's ok for someone to pick crap food for the poor kids but not healthy food? By your logic the parents should be able to order bespoke meals of their choosing without restraint.

This is it. I can't think what on my kids menu is deep fried?
Thry have pitta pizza or chicken yro pitta today, chicken nuggets (probably baked) oe pasta bake, roast dinner or vegetable bake, pizza or wrap, fish or vegan meatball sub. Baked potato and sandwiches available every day. Our kids can't take packed lunches in infants but it's same menu for juniors too. Cakes are all sugar free, always fruit or yoghurt available.

I don't think it will make a jot of difference, other than, as you say happens in your school, more children refusing to eat. Quality should be the focus. Behaviour and timing also need to be sorted. Many schools insist children eat inside (not even in a cafeteria, but in a hall or other space that's not fit for purpose) and only have UP TO 10min to eat. DS rarely eats his (packed) lunch because he says they have to eat inside, but the other kids are too noisy and aggressive, so he just leaves.

Obesity and poor eating habits aren't caused by poor school lunches alone. The wider environment, like the home and shopping environments should also be factored in. Supermarkets in the UK (certainly in big cities) are predominantly ready meals. A very small section is devoted to 'fresh' food, which is expensive and not that fresh.

That made me laugh, sounds about right! Nothing says a kiwi lunch like a meat pie, I remember at primary we all use stick our pies/sausage rolls in the pie oven warmer.

Lunchtimes have been cut because of behaviour problems. There are far fewer problems to deal with when you reduce the lunchtime, significantly so.

Supermarkets in the UK (certainly in big cities) are predominantly ready meals. A very small section is devoted to 'fresh' food

So true! I'd never noticed that before.

Is it a logistical thing do you think? Ie, the long shelf life foods don't go off, so they can have loads of that in the shop at once, but with fresh food, if they overstock, they would get more food waste maybe?

I assume they stock what sells 🤷‍♀️ I don’t think it’s any more complicated than that.

And thats the problem that needs to be dealt with

We have children in large buildings (schools) trapped there all day, without use of toilet facilities when they need due to other children's behaviour, and without the ability to eat or drink appropriately again due to other children's behaviour

Simply not acceptable

Same goes for the poor teachers