A level languages in non-grammar state schools

[arlequin]

Interested in whether many comprehensives have a really decent secondary offer for MFL including a level? The schools I know of it seems to be the biggest gap between private/grammar and comprehensive in terms of numbers taking languages at A level and it makes me concerned for my DS (I say this as a linguist!) Hopefully you all can reassure me! Thank you.

Sixth form colleges usually do, my dc’s schools were both excellent but both were huge, one was 2500 a levels only (no retakes even) and the other was 2600 students 14-18. It’s a numbers game especially at a level because it’s not that popular

Low numbers at a level isn’t necessarily a bad thing - very small class sizes are very helpful with languages.

Where I live the vast majority of schools are 11-16 and pupils go on to non selective sixth form colleges. These have the advantages of scale - there are over 1000 students in a year group - so offer French, Spanish and German A levels as a minimum, with one offering Italian as well.

Unfortunately the 11-16 schools near me only offer one MFL to GCSE (French/Spanish offered in alternate years), so there's no opportunity for these student to do two MFL A levels, which is a shame.

MFL teacher here. Lots of schools have gone down to only offering one language at GCSE. The grammar school where I teach has just decided to make it non-compulsory to do an MFL GCSE. Even at our girls' grammar we only have between 3 and 10 students per language in an A Level class. Two of my Y13s came to us for A Level because their (pretty good) schools weren't offering French A Level due to lack of numbers. State schools can't afford to run really small classes.

Languages are compulsory at my state secondary at GCSE. We offer French, German and Spanish. A-level is offered, but depends on numbers whether they are run.

MFL is my subject tho I no longer teach in school.

I agree that many schools, while they may offer more than one MFL, will only facilitate students to take one at GCSE – obviously limiting possibilities at A level. Some allow two though (I can think of two local to me that do).

There have always been small numbers taking A level MFL tbh. My German class in the 1980s was four students. But I agree it is a concerning trend downwards. A lot of schools I know of are dropping German altogether. In DS2's year, his school was the only one in the city offer German A level (out of about 8-9 settings). In DD's year, the only MFL A level run at the same school was French (two students took it – one was DD, which she agrees massively helped her in the speaking). Having said that, I have been an observer in a French A level class of 19 (that was about 14 years ago tbf).

Basically MFL take-up is declining. Many schools no longer insist on it at GCSE (and I actually think making it compulsory doesn't help) and it is portrayed as a "difficult" subject. There is also the issue of native speakers skewing the A level results. I am very dubious about this (As I have said on MN before) but nonetheless, it is a pervasive view and puts students off I am sure.

@arlequin If your DS wants to take MFL that's great. It will always be a good thing to have A level German or French. What year is he in?What is the MFL offer like at his school? I am thinking your support will give him a good boost as well.

Agreed - my German A-level class had 2, my French one had around 8-10 - BUT nowadays the issue is more whether schools are offering it at all. It’s really sad reading above how many schools only allow kids to take one language to GCSE, German in particular seems to have died a death in the last decade or so. And I can’t see us ever coming back from this situation. Such a shortsighted policy with predictable consequences back in 2004 😢

Thanks everyone! Haha he’s just at primary school. He may not be interested in MFL A level at all but I just think it’s sad not to have the option. It’s such a valuable A level.

Agree small numbers not a bad thing but more the issue is it’s not being offered at all. It’s just not financially viable. Sad!

Those who are in the know or teach mfl, do you think the curriculum is to blame for the low take up at a level? My daughters did french for GCSE and hated it. There is currently nobody interested in taking french at a level in my youngest's school. The way it's taught seems so dry and dreary and I often wonder if that's the teachers or the curriculum.

I did french at a level and I remember being taught so much about life in France and being encouraged to read in french and watching french TV in class. It made the language come alive. They don't seem to do that in my kids school, it's just a lot of learning grammar rules.

Sorry op, taking your thread on a tangent but perhaps my kids experience is a useful insight

I have two DCs, technically in a comprehensive (but in reality it is more like a grammar). Both had the option to do two languages at KS3 and GCSE, DS has chosen French and German. DD has chosen French A-level and considering MfL at University. However, no other school in our city offers French a level and no other school teaches German! I am concerned that DS might want to do French and German at A-level but lack of numbers might make this impossible for the school.

My two LOVE languages, think this is due to amazing teaching and the fact that they (especially DD) enjoyed English at primary with all the technical bits and finds it far too easy and boring at secondary. She likes a challenge!

I think there are lots of reasons for low A level take-up, including the lower numbers taking it at GCSE tbh (unless the school forces it). I love the A level curriculum personally.

I don't find it dry (and it should not be lots of grammar learning). Students learn about current political issues in France (immigration, diverse society, importance of tradition, rise of the far right, the changing role of the family) as well as cultural aspects such as French cinema, Francophone music, youth culture. It’s quite weighty and engaging but maybe seen as hard.

They study a film and a book and have to write about them in TL which may be putting some off.

I’m sorry your DC hated French GCSE. Was this in the last eight years? I think the current spec (I mean the spec since 2018) is much better than the one my DD took.

The curriculum itself is not the issue IMO @Taweofterror but there are many different teaching styles out there and unfortunately not every pupil will get the same quality of teaching. There is a recruitment crisis for a start, so we don’t have our pick of high quality teachers coming through. Many schools don’t value MFL and don't invest in their staff or resource the department appropriately. Lots of schools only offer one MFL now, which is very limiting.

I teach in a state school where we have relatively good A Level numbers and excellent teaching and results. We offer two languages to A Level. But we still get a lot of push back from parents, who do not value languages and push their children into STEM subjects preferentially. This isn’t just an MFL problem, it’s across arts and humanities more generally, but MFL is often the most vulnerable.

Thanks both for your responses. My youngest is doing french GCSE right now. My eldest was 5 years ago so, yes, very recent.
In theory their school offers french and Spanish but have no experience of what Spanish is like.

It's actually a Welsh language school with the majority of kids coming from English speaking households so I definitely think an appreciation of the merits of learning a language is there.

The teachers seem to get decent results at GCSE but something's going wrong as there's a low take up at GCSE and zero at a level.

Ah @Taweofterror I know the English GCSE and A level curriculum; I think the welsh one is different? I know you still get letter grades anyway, so I presume they are not doing for example AQA GCSE French?

ETA so I mean the spec may be different. The pre-reform MFL GCSE in England was very different from the current one but the Welsh one may not have changed?

DD's state school stopped making taking an MFL a compulsory subject at GCSE. Some years no-one got a 9 in some MFL subjects. It has Language College status.

They also don't offer Further Maths GCSE, whereas other local state schools do.

That's true. I know when I've looked at other subjects in the past the curriculum hasn't been very different but perhaps french is. It's such a shame, I loved french.

The fundamentals don't change @Taweofterror but the optional extras like the fun cultural stuff do. Cultural references can get stale quite quickly and it takes a fair amount of effort to keep things fresh.

DDs school couldn't recruit any French teachers. French is now gone from the curriculum. The only way Yr11 is finishing their French GCSEs is by the nearby Sixth Form college loaning a teacher a few hours a week.

In Yr10, 50 children have chosen Spanish however. (They have to do Spanish, History, Geography or Computer Science, but there are minimum grade requirements fir Spanish and CS)

Admittedly, this is based on my experience the best part of 30 years ago, but to an extent, up to GCSEs, language learning is bound to be on the dry side because you are still learning the scaffolding. Maybe there were more schools language TV programmes when we were kids? But I do remember it wasn’t until A-level that we started doing modules involving social issues, work literature etc, doing exercises based on actual radio news recordings etc. That stuff would have been too advanced before then.

It's no surprise.

Take up has dwindled, no one cared to invest in these subjects. If a modern foreign language had been introduced in every primary school, this area of study might be in a better place now.

No, I don't really think it's the curriculum. You can deliver the same curriculum in different ways. A decent teacher can teach almost any content in a fun, interesting way, especiallyat KS3. Even within one school, students can have a very different experience of a subject. If you're making MFL dry and dreary you're doing it wrong! It's true that you do have to hammer the grammar a bit to get them a decent grade at GCSE, but that was always true.

I'm very heartened today actually. I said upthread that we've just made MFL optional at GCSE. We had Y9 parents' evening last night. I've never had so many say they want to do 2 languages at GCSE. Loads saying they were definitely taking one, and parents saying how important/great languages are and how much the dc enjoyed our lessons. 😊

It's compulsory to offer a foreign language at every primary school. It's just that the teaching is pretty random and it's not necessarily the same language they will start with at secondary.

Is it taught by a language specialist or just a class teacher. With all respect to primary school class teachers, doesnt a language need to be taught properly from the start?