Picking options end year 8 - DT required if child thinks Engineering is their uni pathway?

[EvangelicalAboutButteredToast]

My thirteen year old is keen to pursuit engineering currently. It’s an industry that parents and grandparents have followed so it makes sense and they are very good at maths and science. The question they keep asking me though is whether DT is required? Their DT teacher says yes, all I know is that the child needs to be taking maths at a high level and physics so I said I’d ask on here for them.

Another good point about doing too many GCSEs and getting a lesser grade across all of them. Hadn’t considered that.

Another one (with a DS doing engineering right now at uni!) saying maths and physics are required, DT is not.

My DH, brother, 2 of my nieces and both my sons are either engineers or studying engineering at University currently and none of them did DT (or whatever the equivalent was back in the day) at GCSE/O level or A level. That is not to say that it is a bad choice if it is something that your DC enjoys and is likely to do well in and it may well bring some benefits. (My DH often moans that the young engineers he employs lack practical skills!) But it is definitely not essential.
The best choices at GCSE are subjects that leave as many doors open as possible and in which the young person is likely to get the best grades. In reality there is often not a huge amount of choice these days anyway. Maths, English Language, English Literature and either Combined Science or separate Biology, Chemistry and Physics are compulsory and a lot of schools insist on a humanity and modern foreign language so that may well leave only one or two genuine choices and even they may be restricted by timetabling issues. Choosing a more creative or practical subject for the last one is not a bad idea as it adds breadth and can be a nice change from the other lessons. But it's not mandatory in most schools. Basically if your DC wants to do DT it isn't a bad idea but they won't be disadvantaged if they don't.
Regarding A levels for engineering, both my boys have gone to University in the last few years and the general impression I got was that most Universities wanted Maths, Physics and Something Else, but the grade for the third subject was more important than what it actually was. Obviously there are some types of Engineering that will have other specific requirements - Chemisty for Chemical Engineering is the obvious one - but as others have said, Maths and Physics are the subjects which underpin most branches of Engineering.
Right now, I'd just encourage your DC to focus on keeping their options open and aim for the best grades they can manage over a broad range of GCSEs.

Because is some schools it will be ‘that’ class, full of the boys who like to play up and think DT is a diss and is just making stuff.

I think DT is useful as it’s the application of ideas. Unfortunately maths only gets you so far as an engineer. Budding engineers should look at what’s required to be a Chartered Engineer and people who think it’s just maths are in for a shock.

DH is FICE and FIStructE. Engineers working at senior levels are not just churning out calcs. Sadly too many people think that’s the job, but often these are not the most successful engineers. It’s best to have more skills. Best of all, have engineering nous. Be a problem solver. That’s not pure maths because to solve a problem using maths, you have to know what the problem is! Many engineering grads don’t.

DH did Maths, Physics and Engineering A level. For environmental engineering, consider Geography. DT is fine too. No 3rd A level is obligatory but can show relevant interests. DH did Art and TD O levels. He could also have considered Architecture. Art A level is a good one to have for Architecture, should career ideas change. Any engineer going for a well paid job needs a diverse range of skills but unfortunately too many think the only skill needed is maths.

DS didn’t do DT at GCSE, took Computer Science and PE instead. At college, he did Maths, Physics and Design Engineering A levels. He’s not doing full on Engineering now, he’s working towards Project Controls Professional but his A levels would have been enough to get him on Aerospace Engineering degree at local uni.

Definitely don’t need DT.

As everyone has said, you can put anything together with maths and physics at A level (ds did German!)

He did wish he’d done double maths A level as that would have made the first year easier apparently as would a computer studies GCSE….

but overall he’s been fine - good luck to your Ds!

Maths is vital to get through an engineering degree. Many practicing engineers, especially senior ones in management positions don’t use higher level maths, it’s true, but to get there they will have needed maths. Different engineering disciplines use varying amounts of maths. Most of an engineering degree is, deep down, teaching how to formulate and solve complex problems using maths and how to decide if the solution is viable.
Having said that many senior engineers don’t need much maths, many do. I know a lot of academics who use complex maths every day and people in industry who use high level maths; one of my oldest friends is a thermodynamics expert who works in industry, he is a phenomenal maths user. Degrees have to equip students for all engineering careers, some will use maths throughout, some won’t.
A lot of software is used in engineering which takes away some of the hard maths - someone has to create that software - engineers, using maths. An engineering degree should equip graduates to create the software, not just blindly use it.
To answer the original question, DT is definitely not required but won’t do any harm. Personally, I would recommend something with essay writing or at least some writing element over DT. The ability to write well will be an enormous asset in an engineering degree.

Engineering undergrads aren’t faced with many real life problems though. Very many are trial and error in controlled settings and there’s no financial constrain to work quickly and accurately or save the client money by finding the most economical solution. Academic engineers are not the same as those at the coal face but do work on complex areas. Certainly in DHs engineering consultancy, maths mattered but you need to know what the problem is before you solve it. Maths doesn’t do that.

Its value will depend on the type of engineering your DC wants to do.

I’m a civil engineer and I did sort of do what appears to be the equivalent of DT. I’m in Scotland and we had/have technological studies which is then split into a practical woodworking/metalworking subject, a graphic comm subject, and Engineering Science subject. I did standard grade, higher and advanced higher Engineering Science at school, and I think it was the most valuable topic I studied cause it gave me a head start on shear force and bending moments, forces and force resolution, etc. I also did maths up to higher - really didn’t need more than that for civil engineering. A good command of English is underrated. Then honestly I filled the rest of my time with things I enjoyed, like art.

BUT…I was in a minority having done Engineering Science in school. Many places didn’t offer it at all. The secondary school I went to dropped it when my dad (who taught it) retired. So while I appreciated it and what my dad taught me in that class, it’s not a critical option and it depends what column it’s in.

The best thing to do is look at the course requirements at some unis, and go from there.

@8TinyToeBeans If this country was serious about engineering it would ensure Engineering at A level was available to many more DC. A long tIme ago, when DH did it, the head start it gave him was immense.

No not needed. A level maths and either chemistry or physics.

I did engineering science at school as well, first girl to take it in my school. It was useful, for me the steam cycles and thermodynamics were a good introduction to the basic thermodynamics at university. The mechanics was also useful, although I only did mech eng in 1st year.

DT is not essential for studying Engineering at university. Unfortunately there are lots of technical jobs where people describe themselves as engineers e.g. heating engineer etc. and that could be why the teacher says it is needed.
If your ds enjoys DT and is good at making things, it could be a good option. However it definitely is not essential for engineering degrees.

@catndogslife Unfortunately what most teachers know about engineering degrees could be written on a fag packet.

The other thing I wanted to add was that engineers should be thinking about the world around them. How does something work? What makes that building stand up? How was that car designed? It’s about getting a quizzical mind to then look deeper into solutions. Dc with no deeper interest aren’t the best engineers and often maths doesn’t lead to the best practical engineers either. In engineering, multiple factors have to be taken into account and it’s sometimes not that complex! It just needs an engineering brain.

DT tends to be a nice to have at GCSE but not essential.
Mainly because very few colleges offer a direct pathway from DT GCSE to Degree level as it splits into its component parts at A level. Mainly Electronics and product design.

It is also worth thinking about the time spent on DT in relation to other subjects outside of lesson time, as it can be a time black hole.
And also worth a look at the pupil make up of the classes in the school as many many many schools use DT as a dumping ground for "those" pupils.

Completely agree.

You don't need that at GCSE for that pathway

My child school doesn't even offer it as an option due to not having a teacher, and we live in a highly industrial employment region of the UK

Maths and physics, absolutely

That’s interesting about it being a subject for boys who think it’s a bit of a doss.
my son wants to take it and takes his schoolwork seriously and wants to get good grades. He wont like it if it’s dominated by idiots.
He’s also interested in engineering. I think his other subjects will be geography and Spanish

Id say DT is nice for a GCSE because it will help a person understand if they like that kind of technical/creative work. Ideally they would also have triple science or full physics and chemistry, and additional maths. Computer science also useful.

When it comes to A levels, Maths , further maths and physics are most important IMO.

@Wolfwhistles It can be a perception - in the same way they see drama etc as being “soft” subjects and for those not capable or interested in more traditional academic subjects. However, it’s a very rigorous course and it’s not easy to get the highest grades.

My DCs class was mostly hard working and committed. There were the odd one or two who dossed about but they were sent out of the DT lab if they were messing around due to safety issues. They soon fell into line.

DC is now taking it at A-level too. They love it as a subject, are excellent at it, and it gives them a break from the brainpower required for maths, further maths and physics. They describe it as a creative subject for STEM students.

The best 3 A levels for engineering are math, physics, further maths. DT doesn't make the cut.

The OP is asking about GCSEs, not a levels, so that isn’t the choice at the moment.

Also, DT is an excellent a level for engineering. Further maths is a great a level to take if the student is strong enough in maths, and while it’s only strongly required for a small number of engineering degrees, it’s going to be highly useful for all of them and will make the first year a lot easier. But there’s lots of benefit to something like DT too. Especially the project design and assessment parts.

@Muu9 DT is exceptionally well regarded as a 4th A-level for studying engineering at university. In fact, it was mentioned at a Cambridge outreach event recently as being a great subject to choose as a significant number of engineering students aren’t that great at the practical side of things.

Of course it comes behind maths, physics and further maths (which are a Cambridge requirement) but it’s not to be written off.

It’s absolutely not a requirement for engineering though and the OP is asking about GCSE options. If your child loves it then take it for that reason.