Yr 1, bright child - help - where do we go from here?

[Tanzie]

DD1 is supposed to be v bright and her teacher wants her to have an assessment by the G & T co-ordinator. For a variety of reasons (sick leave etc) the assessment keeps slipping and has not been done yet. DD keeps telling me she is bored at school and is now saying that she doesn't want to go to school as all she does is play (she is very anorakky child!). I mentioned this to her teacher yesterday and she said she really did not know what more to do - she has "extended" DD as much as she can, but she still needs more. We were told on Monday that the G & T assessment would be done this week, but once again it hasn't been. I do not want to be a pushy parent, and am not convinced she is "gifted and talented" - she is just a bit brighter than the rest and needs more work, but her teacher seems to be saying she can't give her anything more until this assessment is done. I don't want to go flouncing into the headmistress like Mrs Pushy Parent, but I don't want DD getting more and more reluctant to go to school because she is bored - any advice?

CountessDracula, it might be worth finding out a bit more about the local primaries you're interested in, and how they actually organise their teaching. I say this because I've recently found out, through a friend who has older kids at the school my dd will start at this autumn, that they do quite a lot of activities where they group together kids from different age groups. I don't mean that they stream them across age according to ability - just that they will be set some activity to do for an afternoon, creative, scientific, whatever, and there will be a mixture of 5/6/7/etc yr olds doing it together.

This is just one of their 'normal' ways of organising the school day, but I can see that in a school like this one, with quite a wide ability range (very mixed intake in social terms), it might offer good ways of tackling enrichment for bright kids and support for those who find it all a bit more difficult too. I'd never heard of this before, so I don't know if it's perfectly normal, or an oddity of this school. But I think it will suit my also very sparky kid quite well. Seems like a more flexible option than some of the acceleration-type strategies others have mentioned.

Doddle! OK money no object, limitless funding, resources etc., this is what I would ideally want in schools for highly able children:

I've been thinking about this for a couple of hours - so be warned it will be long! Some are very simple/cheap things, others much more difficult to provide in practice. Some I view as essential in any school, some are very much unattainable luxuries!

Most important is communication between school and parents. As with any child, it's vital that parents feel they can go in and discuss their child's needs without being branded "pushy". According to research (I will expand if you want), parents are far better at identifying high ability than teachers!
A school that is able to view every child as an individual and provide them with the education they need, even if they are at an extreme end of the ability scale in one or more subjects.
A passionate, well-informed G&T co-ordinator. I've read quite a few books on the subject Doddle, and can recommend a couple of the best (IMO!) if you want. Are you in a primary or secondary school?
A school that is prepared to "think outside the box" if necessary in providing for particularly unusual children. Positive links with the NAGC for instance can be very helpful.
Within a standards-based, competencies-driven curriculum many highly able children will not ordinarily have access to any sort of cognitive challenge. They should have many opportunities for extension and enrichment work alongside their classmates.
This should not be 'more of the same' if they finish their work early, nor should it be dependent on their completing everything all their peers are doing. For instance, as a very simple example, my son at age 7 was consistently getting 15/15 in every spelling test: so during the ten minutes' "practice your spellings" time after lunch, instead he was given logic problems and word puzzles to solve. This tiny change made a huge difference to his motivation, and he usually came out of school every day talking about the problems he had solved.
Emotionally safe experience of challenge to the point of failure. This is actually very difficult to provide, especially for children who may well have virtually never got anything "wrong" in a standard test throughout their school career.
CURRICULUM CONTRACTION In an ideal world a teacher would provide the parent with a fairly detailed summary of the curriculum for the term in different subjects. And together they would decide in which areas the child had already demonstrated competency. From there the teacher could arrange for the child to be released from standard class work occasionally, particularly from whole class teaching on basic literacy/numeracy skills, and instead given opportunities to work on individual projects, or with older children, or on some other extension/enrichment work. This curriculum contraction is IMO most important, but least practised, in Reception and Yr1.
Many highly able children are perfectionists: to counteract this class teachers should be encouraged to focus on the means - praise concentration and task commitment, "how are you doing this, what were the easy/difficult bits", not the appearance of the final result. Again this is very important for very young children in KS1 and earlier. ... and don't even get me started on yr1 teachers who bang on about handwriting ...
Highly able children should have many opportunities to work in pairs, or in teams, sometimes with children of similar ability. This may involve having access to some classes with older children.
Extra curricular activities can be extremely valuable, giving children opportunities to pursue their interests and meet intellectual peers, and if these are seen as being connected with school this is very positive. (Rather than school is boring, but Saturday club is fab). There are loads of possibilities, which include:

• Philosophy for Children
• Chess Club
• Reading Groups
• Explorers Groups
• Science Club Some of these may be as part of initiatives with other schools.

I'm jumping about a bit here, as ideas occur to me. I guess if you've read this far you're pretty committed and can cope with a bit of incoherence! (I can type faster than I can think!)

Opportunities to work in school time on extended home/school projects, such as writing a novel, or designing and building a piece of equipment, ..
Opportunities to develop creative and critical THINKING skills
Possibilities to learn and prove learning without writing things down - especially in early years
Access to suitable materials - i.e. books suitable to their current reading age, even when this is double their chronological age. It is particularly important that very young superb readers should have access to specially selected 'censored' books that have challenging text but suitable content.

I guess all that remains for me to say is CONGRATULATIONS on reading this far

As you can see it is a bit of a passion of mine. If you, or anyone else, want to talk further off-board, feel free to CAT me!

My MIL was a G&T co-ordinator and one of the things that she said was vital was teaching the very able to cope with lack of perfection and 'failure' when they got to the upper limit of their considerable ability. the most able children will often have little or no experience of 'failing' or finding a task difficult or challenging. helping them to have sufficient emotional maturety to cope with they own limits is, I think, a vital part of their school experience.

Would secod the 'parents but not pushy parents' thing. DD is very able (ahread 4-5 years in English and science) and it is sometimes hard to discuss her without feeling 'pushy'.

thanks Roisin and HMB!

Roisin, I will CAT you, brilliant suggestions, I'll just have to go and ask if they can give me the whole school budget now!!!!

Thanks for starting this thread, have also sent for the book to help me with DS1.

DD goes to an international school (run on UK lines). She is a September birthday and had to do 2 years in Kindergarten/nursery as they admitted her a year early, but would not put her up to reception with the rest of the class. Fair enough - she didn't speak English until she was 3 anyway and was v quiet. She blossomed in Reception and finished the year with an assessment equivalent to that of a bright Yr 1 child (according to her teacher). I think she would have been happy to go straight to year 2, but now I think the jump at the end of this year from Yr 1 to Yr 3 would be too much for her.

Second what HMB says about learning to fail. dd1 aged 5 or 6 was ferociously competitive about the most ridiculous things, and used to lose the plot spectacularly if she couldn't immediately do something perfectly, or if anyone else's was better.

Nonetheless she managed to spend three and a half (count 'em) years splashing around in the complete non-swimmer's class while all her friends moved up through their badges. It took a lot of effort on our part and hers to see her through it, but think it was a more useful learning experience than anything she did at school. She's now passed her bronze, and was justifiably hugely proud, as it was a real achievement -- unlike coming first in everything at school, which she can do merely by getting out of bed in the morning.

I think that's a really important point, frogs. The main thing that seems to have changed bigtime since my (state) school primary days is the levels of praise kids get for "accidental" achievement ie: doing well through natural aptitude rather than trying hard. Drives me nuts- in my day we knew full well that real achievement for which praise is due comes when you work your socks off for something, not when you are effortlessly good at something so put no effort in. I think it's the effect of the National Curriculum- teachers get ludicrously excited if a child happens to be reasonably good at something measurable by a SAT. Not good for said child's levels of staying power or love of learning, not to mention bumptiousness, IM(B)E. Sorry if that sounds sour but I rue the day my son's teacher let him know she was v impressed with his reading- we spent a good while trying to undo the damage. It was only when the little git started refusing to read in class on the grounds that he'd finished the reading scheme and now knew enough to last a lifetime, he reckoned, that the teacher started to suspect that she'd handled the situation less than brilliantly. Didn't know whether to laugh or cry when she reported what a bananahead he was being, since I really felt it was all her fault, I'm afraid. In the light of this experience, I think it's important to make sure kids who are doing well at school without trying very hard don't become insufferable, but how to do this without crushing their spirit too much is a hard one.

So how about this? School has decided to teach to ability groups 3 days a week. Y 4, 5 and 6 are taught in ability groups. Problem? Dd is a very (extremely scarily) bright Y4 therefore in top group. Y6 is very able Y6 (99% in 11plus - still chastising her for an error in non-verbal reasoning!!) and not happy to be in top group with sis 2 years younger. Where would ds dyslexic but extremely able and mature for age fit in? Tbh haven't followed up as we are currently living abroad and children are on reg as distance learning so only attend when home. Would love to know if this has happened elsewhere and what feeling was.

The "learning to fail" bit is such a tough one, and does depend a bit on temperament. DS1 is great - we've always told him "if you're not making mistakes, you're not learning, you're just practising", and he will always eagerly accept a challenge, and always choose more difficult work over routine stuff.

DS2 currently will not. He will always choose the easy work, and claims he doesn't like a challenge. He's only 5, so maybe this will come as he gets a bit older.

Scummy is right about the praise. But it's a fine line -- dd1 has been hugely frustrated by her inability to win a school prize for anything, at all, ever. The prizes always went to the kids who had struggled a bit more. Eventually she went in for a drawing competition (which she is not particularly gifted at) and did a fantastic collage. When a classroom assistant suggested that dd1's picture should win, the staffroom response was, "Oh, but dd1 always wins everything." It was only because I'd had that conversation with the TA two days previously that she was able to say, "In fact dd1 has never won anything, it's just that everyone thinks she does."

And when she did get the prize in assembly she came home walking on air. She still has the picture and certificate framed on her wall, although it was two years ago.

Can I take this opportunity once again to plug the kids magazine Aquila ? They run regular competitions, and their circulation is pretty small, so a good chance of winning. Dd1 recently won an amazing sculpture kit for entering some 'piece the picture together' competition. They also publish readers' letters and jokes. It's aimed at junior-age kids, 7 or 8 up, I guess. But a very able younger child might like it too.

Roisin - have you considered being a G&T educational adviser? From my own experience as well as those of friends and MNers you know more about it than most schools!

I've just read through this thread quickly, out of curiosity, as none of mine have ever been classified G&T although they are all pretty bright.

Their primary school paid lip service to providing extension work but actually did very little and what they was generally "older" work, not problem-solving etc.

Anyway I just wanted to agree whole-heartedly with what roisin and hmb say about teaching to fail - DS2 sailed through primary school work (but never got a huge fuss made, scummy - IME, at our school anyway, prizes were generally more for effort than ability, which is the right way round for me too) but is now finding Y7 algebra quite a struggle and not coping well with the fact that it is a struggle. I think he is too old now for "if you're not making mistakes, you're not learning, you're just practising".

roisin, I love your "money no object" improvements. Unfortunately there is more to it than just money - staff goodwill is essential too and there has been very little of that at our primary since the current head arrived 10 years ago - what extra-curricular activities used to happen have virtually stopped. Very sad. So this school has more computers, interactive whiteboards and other technology than it knows what to do with but no clubs to speak of.

Oh yes, another vote for AQUILA that Frogs mentioned. We ordered a sample copy, that ds1 loved, and he's had a few copies to borrow from school. But my mum has just paid for a subscription for him as a birthday present!

Ah but Yoyo, I'm in the comfortable position of being able to read a lot of the research, examples of best practice etc., but able to live in cloud cuckoo land! I've no real experience of schools or teaching, and certainly no idea of finance and budgets. Talk is cheap, and it's very easy to talk about the subject without any real consideration of teacher's time pressures or financial implications!

Maybe it's just his teacher being a ninny, janh? Hope so! She lurves him in a yukky teacher's pet way, unfortunately.

Your poor dd, frogs- sounds like she tries really hard for little recognition. Not at all like my lazy wee boy. He's not a gin and tonic (except in cheekiness)- he basically saw he was on to a good thing so took advantage... Thought I'd post in case it has relevance for you guys with v bright kids. Maybe they're more naturally motivated though?

Frogs - re learning to fail - my DD is exactly like yours on spectacularly losing the plot!

No, Scummy, she doesn't try hard at school no need. And therein lies the problem other kids make a gargantuan effort to get down a few lines, while dd1 and her ilk scribble down the first thing that comes into their heads and get 'Excellent' stamped on it. Point out that actually this isn't excellent at all for that particular child and the teacher looks at you blankly. So when a situation comes along that does require the child to persevere at something that she's not immediately brilliant at, the sh*t hits the fan bigtime, cos she wouldn't recognise effort if it bit her on the bum (at that time anyway, much better now.)

Whereas my ds, who is doing well at school but not outstandingly so has developed a set of coping strategies for when he makes mistakes, or when other people can do somethings better than him, and is quite sanguine about the fact that "Miss X says Y1 is all about trying. It doesn't matter if you make a mistake as long as you do your best".

Q: which one of these children is better equipped to deal with what life throws at them?

Yes- see exactly where you're coming from, frogs. I do tend to think teachers have quite a bit to answer for here. But then again, truly getting it right for each individual child whilst managing class dynamics is a gargantuan task. My other son's teacher sounds a bit like your son's though and I'm far happier with the messages he's getting about life the universe and everything.

My DD came out from school yesterday saying that a classmate (average ability, poor concentration)was one of six to be given letters home for their "excellent work" last term. Her teacher told me in Parents' evening that she is outstanding in all areas. DD asked me what she could do to get this recognition and I found it hard to answer. My stock answer is that some children don't find things very easy so if they try hard they get praise as encouragement. I now feel that the more able children are discriminated against to such an extent that I fully expect my daughter to rebel (some signs already).

stepping in to do update on my strand of this now multi-filamented thread: frogs, we are going to do exactly as you suggested - dd is joining reception for playtimes & afternoons (which are mostly play) next week, then joining altogether and moving up with them; with backstop that if it proves bad idea then she can just drop back & join reception with her current group in September.

Intriguingly, the headmistress commented that we have to bear in mind that in a couple of years' time extension work will be the issue - showing that she's aware exactly of the point you and roisin made about the gap's being likely to get bigger - and that this isn't a "quick fix".

I wish the school were quite so enthusiastic about ds, but that's a totally separate issue

We've had that too, yoyo. But it's not just an ability thing. The school are now handing out 'praise notes' for good behaviour, but in practice they tend to be used as a behaviour management tactic for the difficult kids. So ds, who is mostly very co-operative and enthusiastic at school, and generally adored by all teachers is frustrated by the fact that the class naughty boys have got 20+ of these things and a bronze certificate, while he's still stuck on 11.

dd1 only ever gets praise notes from the classroom assistant, who has a soft spot for her and makes use of the girls' desperate need for responsibility and challenges by getting them to help out in the younger classes. On the rare occasion dd1 has had a praise note from her teacher, she ostentatiously tears it into tiny shreds.

Glad to hear you've found at least a temporary solution, binkie. I hope it works out well for her.

Frogs - I agree that this isn't just about abilities. We have just had a very similar experience of the way behaviour management works. My ds is in reception and has been really upset a few times that he has missed out on stickers, being given special tasks etc which are obviously being used as rewards for the more difficult to manage children. He just doesn't understand that he does everything asked of him and gets nothing.