Who will come and sympathise with me on the subject of bright boys who can't be bothered to make an effort with schoolwork?

[frogs]

Argh. Ds on inset day, I'm trying to make him finish his holiday homework, which is a thoughtful, well-structured and (you'd think) boy-friendly and interesting task involving a piece of extended writing about an adventure in Antarctica. Based on the previous half-term's geography work, so by no means the usual 'get your parents to research it on google and tell you what to write' routine.

Boy is bright. Boy is in Y4, and reads extremely well and very widely. Boy is nonetheless reluctant to produce anything other than the shortest, scruffiest, most ill-spelled piece of unimaginative scrawl, and alternates between grumps and tears when encouraged to crank it up a notch. And he can write beautifully when he wants to, I've seen the evidence. But mostly he just doesn't want to, would rather be lounging round the place, kicking a ball or playing SuperMario. Which he has spent most of half term doing, before you all criticise me for being a demon pushy mother from hell.

Argh. Will it get better? Please tell me he won't be like this when he's 15, and I won't have to worry about him spending the rest of his life working in McD's? Please tell me something that will stop me wanting to lie on the floor biting mouthfuls out of the carpet?

My ds, also bright and in Y4, is exactly the same - although TBH I was also very lazy at school and don't have the excuse of having been a boy! He used to like maths at school, but now he hates it, which I think is largely because he can't be bothered to learn his tables, which are the key to so much.

The thing that Bink said about 'structuring scaffolding' rang bells for me since as well as struggling with homework we have the same nightmare over piano practice. Ds's piano teacher was away for 6 weeks so gave him some work to do over that time including music theory - but instead of getting on with it he's been totally daunted by the fact that she'd given him 25 pages and refused even to start! He has wanted to learn the church organ since he was about 3, but he can't cope with the idea that such an ambition requires lots of practice over several years, and it's all just "too hard" so he wants to give the whole thing up.

The whole thing is so frustrating, but comforting in a way to know that it's such a common problem.

DS1 (now at Russell Group university to give you hope but doing not v.intellectual subject!) was exactly the same, and still is to a certain extent. Went to highly selective grammar school and did bare minimum all the way through, losing place in 6th form to boot. However,changed to comp school, pulled self together for A levels, hence university place. I think it is a question of maturity. You really should not be worried if your son is only yr 4 at primary school. Some of the very hardworking boys at my son's grammar school did worse than him at A level in the end, they had sort of 'burnt out' by them and a lot of the ones that did brilliantly at GCSE at the comp, much better than him, also floundered a bit at A level. So basically, there is hope....Just to add have DS2 also at said grammar school wingeing over homework too (yr 7) and being 'forced' to revise for end of term exams, and DD who also hated coursework etc but is at Russell Group university too.

ssd - touchtyping - there are lots of free typing sites on the internet, or you can use something like Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing (there are both children's and adult versions - my DS and DD used the adult version). There are also other children's typing programs. The key is to get them doing five or ten minutes a day and once their speed starts being measured keep a chart because they love to see the graph go up!

Have a look at, for example:

www.bbc.co.uk/schools/typing/

www.typeonline.co.uk/ (would suit older children)

There are loads more so you should be able to find one that appeals.

When typing was discussed before pica was mentioned: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/43/466177

It is a very common problem with boys, and many of them get worse in secondary.

Fortunately my boys generally get very little homework, but usually get stuck into it enthusiastically when they get it.

For longer homeworks unless specifically prohibited they do it on the computer, as they much prefer this.

I generally have a "let's get it over and done with" approach, rather than being too hung up about the quality; especially if they're not inspired by it. (They learn through many other things they do too.)

If they are flagging a bit and need some encouragement I will type a paragraph for them whilst they dictate: they find this easier and it gets them going a bit.

I also specify short sessions: right let's spend 30 mins quality time on this now before Simpsons, then there's an end in sight.

I'm storing up some tips and ideas from here for future reference in case they turn lazy when they get older/have more homework to do.

It's a tough one and like hitting your head against a brick wall. And in fairness it's not all boys - DS2 is ridiculously conscientious and panics if things aren't "perfect". However DS1 was a nightmare throughout school and had to be nagged, bribed and threatened to produce work of any decent standard - so frustrating as he is bright enough that he winged his way through most of it and always just did "well enough". There was one infamous parents' evening when I actually cried it was so bad. Teacher after teacher just laid into him and talked about wasted potential etc - I'm breaking into a sweat just thinkig about it.
The good news is that he's 20 and in his second year at University now, having taken a gap year, and is suddenly really motivated, works realy hard and seems genuinely interested - after all these years it's great to see.

thanks very much flaming!

my 2 are 7 and 10, is that a good age do you think to start?

Is it just me with a DD like this then!!!

Hassled, i could have written your post! At the last parents evening exactly the same happened, it felt like a character assassination. After about 5 teachers telling him he was bright but lazy, ds went off to kick a bin outside and i was in tears to the head of year.

I do hope ds picks his socks up as yours does. Part of the prob is he's at a highly competetive grammar school so he's really got to work hard, or he looks like a failure with all Bs.

"as yours HAS"

frogs... he'll come through it. Try not to stress. The more you want him to do it the less he will. He has time to come back round. Encourage him (as I'm sure you do). I used to get DS1 to do homework first thing (if it was holiday homework) and then the rest of the day was his.

You watch... senior school may well be the making of him and you have some decent choices out there. If he heads off to Barnet like my DS then you won't have to worry about it again.

Mars, you are a love. We will have that lunch once I'm slightly more mobile.

I'm not sure my ds is in the QEB league -- that is where your ds is, have I got that right? I'm tactically manoevering for FCH at the moment, but will have to look round this autumn, argh. But will be interested to hear your take on the local options.

Actually hds cheered up over his project, once he'd got into it, and finished it off last night (on the 'puter, thanks for that idea, people) complete with fake reviews and blurb on the back: 'Frogs' ds is a famous explorer. He is only 8, but he is a brilliant writer and has travelled to millions of countreys (sic)."

My DP apparently never did his homework, no matter what the school or his parents tried to make him do it.
He is now a surgeon, so don't worry too much

Don't rule it out (QEB I mean or the lunch for that matter.... bit free next week though waiting on a birth)

He's in Y4. A lot can change. Is he musical? They're a music specialist school.

ssd - 7 and 10 are great ages to start typing. It really depends on when the individual child's hands are big enough so that the fingers that need to stay on the "guide keys" (i.e. asdf ;lkj) don't have to stray too far as they, for example, reach from f to t, otherwise it makes it difficult for them. Generally speaking they can manage well from about 6 onwards. A related benefit with, for example, Mavis Beacon is that the version we had allowed practice on the "500 most common words", etc. - spelling is reinforced without them realizing.

I know that MB is right that some boys don't grow out of it but a lot do.

I personally was just like this at school and I am not even a boy whereas dh was the most concientious student ever. Mind you dh is now an academic and I am in a middling but reasonably well paid management job.

My nephew is also like this and last year his dad was tearing his hair out about it. We were all set for him to fail his end of year exams in Italy (aged 13)and miss getting into the school of choice but he pulled it together for the exams and passed quite well - again by the seat of his pants.

I know I used to feel I could do it without much work but what MB says about Alevels is true, I came a cropper at Alevels which require much more work no matter how bright you are. I did however pull out all the stops when that happened got into a good university and got a reasonable 2:1 in a science subject so there is hope.

I also hated writing and always felt like couldn't write fast enough and I'd get bored very easily so typing homework may help a bit.

Sorry I'm not more help but this is something that is very difficult to get over and in many ways you can only encourage and do a bit of pushing but you can't actually MAKE him do his homework well.

thanks flaming!

will give it a try

Just thought I'd pop in here to say that ds did a ten minute test tonight without fuss and got 100%. I let him know how pleased I am.

I also had a bit of a talk with him about how it's absolutely fine if he doesn't get into the grammar school AS LONG AS HE DOES HIS ABSOLUTE BEST but it is not fine if he doesn't get in because he DIDN'T try because I will be mightily irritated at having to pay (even assuming he gets in there, there are still tests although with a 50% pass mark but who knows how hard they are>?). He said "OK, what about if I get in without trying?" . So, small progress of a kind. I'm also going to get a Wii game for improving vocab since I think that will motivate him and he is falling down on some of the 11+ Qs because of his vocab.

ds has just had his end of year exams (y6 in selective independent secondary school) - he was supposed to do some revision over half term - actually he was supposed to do most of his revision BEFORE half term and not leave it until the last minute, but hey ho, what do I know

anyway the little so-and-so kicked up a massive fuss every time I suggested that maybe half an hour's light revision might be a good idea - he ended up doing the bare minimum and even that increased the number of grey hairs on my head exponentially

the results have just started coming in and so far he's got between 85% and 90% in everything so of course as far as he's concerned his 'revision is pointless' stance is vindicated [heavy sigh emoticon]

It's agony, isn't it? And personally, I do think DSs who CAN cruise yet pass even quite well at this stage can so easily form the attitude that it's all so EASY there's no need to work up a sweat, (mum), yet can also so easily be heading for disaster come A levels and uni where, as so many MNetters have said, it all changes and the already organised, prepared DC (read 'girl') carries on as before whilst our smarty-pants DSs fall by the wayside, mired in anger and confusion as they discover the goal posts have apparently 'moved'! Luckily these days A levels at 18 are not the be all and end all they once were but sometimes it DOES require the discovery that you have to pay second time around to make such DSs apply themselves.

The other point re sending in obviously substandard homework and the DC taking the consequences- the reality is I feel the overworked teacher in the average state primary ISN'T going to make a song and dance and is far more likely to put the effort in with the DCs who have also 'put the effort in', shrugging at our DSs lack of commitment. It'd be really beneficial if the teachers WERE doing the 'ton of bricks' thing but that requires the mentoring, time and energy many teachers haven't got! This was brought home to me in reading the comments made in the music book of my friend's Y5 private school DS : "F, I feel you are not keeping up your side of the bargain, you and I both know you can do better than this and that you are letting yourself down. I expect better from you and this is what we're going to do to improve matters..." I'd LOVE it if my DS got the occasional comeuppance like this!

It's amazing how different girls are imo.

My friend's girl is doing end of yr 8 tests, as is my ds. Girl is at all girls private school, boy at mixed grammar.

In the half term, the girl was in tears because she was terrified she wouldn't do well enough, despite revising for 5 hours a day for 9 days straight.

Boy - 10 mins revision, then massive strop because it's too hard/boring/easy/yr 8 tests don't matter, 3 times in 9 days.

He knows he'll get Cs or maybe scrape a few Bs but just doesn't give a toss, whereas a lot of the girl's kudos comes from getting straight As.