Starting school and toxic friends

[Treeparent]

My 4yr old is about to start school with a girl I can’t stand. I’m worried about her behaviour and it’s making me extremely anxious about the sort of girls she’ll be surrounded by.

I’m friends with her mother, they seem like a nice family and she’d rather convinced me about the private school we’re about to send our girls to. Their daughter is mean, rude and has often made my daughter cry whilst her mum insists they’re great friends and tries to arrange more play dates. Lots of “I won’t be your friend if… you’re not allowed to play with me now… you can’t be friends with XYZ…”, acts like a spoilt brat and parents seem to just shrug and say “oh these girls”. My DD is not perfect but she’s friendly, joins in and is a happy girl when not around her. Worst of all her behaviour really seems to influence my daughter who copies the whining and rudeness and even recently acted like a totally bully with her against another child. Even DH was shocked when picked her up recently and rarely notices this sort of thing.

DD is bright and about to start reception at local independent girls through school with this friend. We turned down the outstanding state primary school ( a really hard decision and I have regrets - she had nice friends from nursery going there and all just normal local kids). We went for this school as offer a very nice and nurturing environment and option of avoiding 11plus drama later if DD isn’t up to it. We decided to see how things go seeing as we’d already paid the deposit and convinced ourselves it’s giving her a great start - but now I’m even more worried that she’ll be surrounded by privileged mean girls and I’ll spend the next 6 years picking this apart. Her happiness is the most important thing to me.

Can I do anything to make this better or shouldn’t interfere? They’ll be in class together, should I talk to the teacher now? Hope she’ll just make new friends? Is this the start of private girls school hell that I’ve been so worried about? And if so, is pulling your kid from private school during primary years terrible?

Thank you if you’ve read this far - really appreciate outside perspective and advice.

It’s a difficult one. If you are not comfortable talking to the girl’s mum then I think you have the right to approach the teacher in confidence. I understand your anxiety. I have a little one about to start at an indie girls' school. My worry is that she will be on the receiving end of bullying. I hope that is not the case as the school seems nurturing and I would hope they would stamp out such bad behaviour. But the worry is still there. It’s (sometimes) unfortunate that children do learn from their peers. Given your concerns I would speak to the teacher to see if she can separate them, giving your DD a chance to make other friends. Hopefully that will improve the behaviour. If after a reasonable length of time you continue to notice adverse changes in your DD’s conduct then you could consider moving her. That’s what I would likely do. For me, the school should not simply be a place of academic learning; it’s important that they learn and imitate values such as kindness that define who they are as people. I’m guessing that you feel the same.

grow a pair, say what you think about her daughter to your friend, friendship finished, no more socialisation with DD, problem solved

It’s on you to talk and act

First of all stop using stereotype of all girls schools. Kids are kids whichever school they go to and children in independent schools aren't "other" beings. There are nice and not so nice children and people everywhere. Part of life is trying to navigate around them.
Your DD will make new friends very quickly and it's a good life lesson ie how to deal with and avoid mean people.

Firstly I want to say I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this! I could have written the first part myself! At nursery my daughter was friends with a child, who was exactly as you describe above! I was friend’s with the mother and she would always laugh it off
‘they are an old married couple the way they argue’ but all I saw was her child being mean, overpowering, violent and just horrible! There was so many instances where this child was so cruel to my daughter, it wasn’t an age thing - I know children squabble - it was deep rooted and I noted if my daughter wasn’t there to overpower she would pick on the next child! Things came to a head when, during a play date at her house, within five minutes the child had told my daughter to ‘go away’, ‘stop following me’ and then kicked her in the face! The mum didn’t really see the problem and wanted another play date!! I ended up pulling away and the mother got angry with me, so the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree!

Luckily my child was in year below and distancing myself was the best thing I could have done. I made a vow that if she got into the same school as this child, I would swap. Luckily this didn’t happen! In your situation I would talk directly to the teachers and then avoid not spending time outside of school with her. In hindsight, the other school would have maybe been a better option! Could you be put on continued interest list?

I don’t think all the children at the new school will be mean and act like this, I think this kind of behaviour is modelled from how she is being parented! It seems a very weird need to overpower and have some control. Weirdly, when I went to go around to look at the school this girl goes to, she was very meek and quiet amongst her peers. Hopefully the structure of school and being around more children, made her realise you can’t be a bully and get away with it.

I think a fresh start will be good for both of them and I’m sure your daughter will make some lovely new friends. Sending a big hug as I know how stressful being in this situation is! If you can’t control the school, try and limit spending lots of time together outside of school, even if it ruffles feathers!

If I could avoid my child being around someone like that, I would. I remember having a friend like that as a young child and it was miserable and damaged my confidence and self esteem.

If it’s going to happen, prepare your child well. Lots of books and discussions about what makes a good friend and why we should walk away from people who do things that make them bad friends. Your dd is still very young though, so it will take a lot of ongoing effort to discourage this friendship and promote others.

Consider your friendship and how nice this family really are if they’re ok with their child being unkind.

Is it possible to request she moves class? Bring together all day every day will be a challenge and it doesn’t seem like these children work well together. If your daughter is bullying other kids already that needs to be addressed. I’d request she move class and absolutely stop any voluntary contact. You don’t have to blame the other child or mother, this is about you taking care of your own child ‘I’ve noticed my daughter isn’t always kind when playing with your Sara, I’m so sorry. I’ve told her we are going to take a break for a while so she can settle into reception and remember how to be a kind girl’ or whatever. Let the friendship die out without drama and just really encourage any other connection she develops.

I would move as far away from the situation as I could - I really wouldn’t want my DC hanging out with a child and family whereby they think this behaviour is ok. You will find that it will take a lot of strength of character of your 4 year old DD to walk away at such a young age and decide not to be friends with the other child. Is there the option of moving class? If not I would seriously consider if the school is the right place for your DD.

My experience of reception through to year 6 is that most schools regardless of being state or private are nurturing….the only edge that private would give at this age is the extra curricular unless you want a highly competitive school going forward but then there is always tutoring. Why not contact the LEA and see if you could do an in year application for the school you turned down - you never know - state schools really aren’t as bad as MN posters would lead you believe my DC was perfectly fine and still got into a selective private for 13+ which is when they really do need all the extra stuff.

I don’t think you can make a decision on the school on the basis of one child. There will be tricky children wherever you go, a private school does not make it more likely. Friendships change massively at that age and the ‘toxic’ girl may turn out ok. She’s only 4 presumably so still pretty young. Just stop seeing the other girls outside school and encourage new friendships when she joins.
My DCs are older now but when I think back to their primary school days there were some tricky kids who all turned out ok in the end. And some the other way round!

I’m now 58 and my supposed best friend from primary school behaved like this towards me all the way through my school years until I left to go to college at 17. This person affected my whole school life. I’d go to bed at night praying she’d be my friend the next day. She absolutely ruined my school years. At college I made new friends and thank god I made the move. She recently tried to contact me through SM. I blocked her. Even now I remember the awful feeling of being on my own if she decided she didn’t want to be my friend that day. I’d bite the bullet and intervene asap. Send her to a school where you absolutely know she’s not going to have to put up with this type of nasty behaviour. It could affect the rest of her life x

What do you think is the main benefit of this school vs the outstanding school you turned down?

Send her to a school where you absolutely know she’s not going to have to put up with this type of nasty behaviour.

That type of school emphatically doesn't exist -- all schools will have difficult children. Parents need to help their children how to navigate friendships and antipathies.

If anything, I think it's more alarming that the OP appears to have only sent her child to this school because the other mother talked it up, rather than because she genuinely thought it was the best choice for her daughter.

Well you can encourage other friendships and your daughter will make other friends. You can distance your daughter from this friendship. I find it a bit strange that you can’t stand a 4 year old and you’re calling her toxic. If anything you should divert your feelings towards her parents who dont seem anything wrong with her behaviour. On the other hand your daughter is engaged in the same bullying behaviour so shes hardly and angel.

Tricky!!

Luckily my own DD has had a straightforward start to school with friends, but there’s a girl in her class (they’re aged 8 now) who repeatedly comes up in bullying problems.

She is, I hate to say it, a bad apple. Her elder sister is lovely. I don’t know what’s going on in the family, but this kid is downright mean, manipulative, rude, disruptive.

When we visit the school for assemblies etc, I see that my good friend’s daughter is the bad apple’s best mate! This kid is quite sweet, but I hear increasing stories of the bullying she gets drawn into.

if I was her mother, I would be changing schools honestly! The friendship seems utterly toxic. The school is small so there’s no other class to go to.

Perhaps if you can encourage plenty of play dates with other kids right from the start, your DD will form other bonds. Fingers crossed. But if she doesn’t, I honestly wouldn’t say you were mad to move her.

Also as an aside, I personally wouldn’t send my DD to a girls school. Academically brilliant for sure, but socially unhealthy.

Good gracious, you admit yourself you let this woman influence where you sent YOUR daughter to? Your poor daughter sounds like she’s a subject of someone trying to keep up with the Jones!

Is there just one class? If you say anything Id suggest asking for DD to be in the other class to this child. If its a small school with just one class, then i think you need to ask yourself if you’re cut out for that. You are having quite a reaction to this child and worrying about things that might never happen. Being over invested in your DDs friendships in a small environment sounds like a recipe for disaster for you.

Independent schools are no different to state schools. You will find all types of kids everywhere. My guess is your DD will be fine.

@AlertEagleget a grip! Some kids are awful! She probably is grouping her feelings about the parents within this! 🙄

Send her to a school where you absolutely know she’s not going to have to put up with this type of nasty behaviour

Unfortunately there is no way of knowing if there wouldn’t be girls like this in the next school, they are everywhere, even in the workplace

I think the OP should talk to her daughter and explain that her (the other girl) isn’t very nice (give examples) and tell her to make new friends at the school and to mainly avoid her but don’t be nasty to her as this might draw her on her

This is so true this post……
both myself and my daughter have had this sort of thing and it’s awful;

I personally would be on the phone to the local authority asking if there’s still a place at the state school with the other children she knows from nursery.

This child could be overwhelming and absolutely give your child an awful experience.

Tell your friend you've rethought the finances and decided to send DD to the local state school instead. You need to have your daughter at a different school to this child.

@Treeparent I had this situation. My DD was friends with a girl a year older who was completely wild. Constant 2 hour tantrums whenever she didn't get her way, always ordering DD (and adults!) about, ignoring any instructions given to her by adults (i.e: running away giggling), always in trouble at school, jealous and spiteful with other children ...etc. The mother did nothing about any of this behaviour.

Naturally the girl lacked friends and her mother put lots of pressure on me to send my DD to the same school as her DD (Thankfully I already knew I would be sending my DD elsewhere)

Ended the friendship when her mother started trying to scapegoat and blame my daughter for her child's behaviour and became physically rough with my child.

Honestly, really wish I'd stopped mixing with them sooner. DD is thriving at school, has lots of lovely friends, is well liked by the teachers, and no longer mimics any of that girl's behaviour.

I'd say run a mile. Please send you DD anywhere but the same school as this girl if possible because, if you fall out with this mother, she may well poison the other parents at school against you as revenge.

If you had any comprehension skills you would have understood that op is friends with the mother and finds the family friendly.

😂😂 she can think they are friendly and still wonder why they have managed to raise such a toxic child!

Yes you can . Back off . Don't pass your thoughts and anxieties on to your daughter. Stay positive and encourage other friendships by not focusing on this one. Then see how it (and your daughter) goes. Behaviour and friendships for many children change dramatically from leaving nursery and going to school.

It's difficult, and starting school is such a big milestone, it always brings lots of anxiety for parents without added worries- I'd say;
Try not to stereotype, there are mean kids everywhere, you just know this one well, but there will be mean children in every single school and your dd will learn to navigate them, which is a good life skill
Kids at 4 are not the same as kids at 7, 9, 12. This little girl will grow, hopefully if the school is nurturing their ethos will instill some kind values and expectations.
Your dd will meet and mix with lots of kids, she'll meet children she prefers (likely) and different groups will form, she may actually spend very little time playing with this child
It's absolutely fine to change schools in primary years, my friend took her child out of private and into state in yr 3 and she's thrived, so absolute worst case you can do that
You've chosen this school for lots of valid reasons, let them do their job, judge on the outcomes and speak to them if you have concerns
I would speak to the teacher confidentially if you can, you can use phrases like, this girl has a strong influence on your dd, you would like her to build new friendships as part of starting school, without directly saying she's mean - the teacher will know what you're getting at and keep an eye on it all. Most of all keep communicating with your dd, see how it goes, trust her to navigate these situations, give her the confidence to make new friends and trust her own values, don't dwell on this girl with her or dictate her friendships- she'll figure it out
Good luck to your dd, I hope she loves going to school

If this child is a mean girl then her parents will be responsible for that!