Are foundation degrees a way for uni’s to squeeze more money out of people?

[Mrsbunnychops]

My DC missed out on her first and second choice uni today but was luckily offered a place at one of her selections on a foundation course at uni instead. All great and they are relieved but I did a BSc in the 90’s and I was offered really sensible offers from Russell groups and other decent universities like Nottingham, Kings, Newcastle, Surrey, the highest of which was BCC. When I arrived at my pretty decent uni, I discovered many on my course hadn’t met the grade for chemistry. They had got an E - not a problem! They were offered an additional module in chemistry while the rest of us sat a module in organic chemistry. They did their degree and it was absolutely fine! They got 2:1’s and firsts!

Now, My DC was offered stupid grades like AAB for multiple universities - even a much less popular course at a very average Uni was BBB - Which are very high for 2 or 3 science A Levels?

I May also add that I know the uni my DC got into very well because I went to it in the same faculty!

question is - why do they ask such outrageous grades these days? Especially for science?

Is it better for the uni to get an extra year’s income by offering the foundation course for a year when really all they needed was an extra module of chemistry? As so many won’t meet the over inflated grades these days? The University looks like the hero, when in reality it’s just a way of making money?

also, by pushing the grades higher and higher are we setting the poor sixth formers unrealistic grade targets, spoiling their sixth form years and causing major stress?

Hmmm?! Apologies if I sound a bit ranty - but it feels a bit off!

This is my thinking. It’s just a way to squeeze money out of students.

No one did a foundation apart from art and design when l went.

Do you mean a foundation degree (which is essentially the first two years of a bachelors degree, level-wise, gives the qualification of e.g.FdA, wirh the possibility of topping up.to a full bachelors at some point in the future), or a foundation year, which is 'year 0' (a pre-first year course) of a normal full degree course?

@MarchingFrogs i think the OP means the latter.

And yes, it turns a 3 year degree into a 4 year degree.

A). A levels grades have increased massively over the last 20 odd years. B). AAB/BBB aren’t that high really - science should be rigorous. Most unis who offer in that area will accept a slipped grade or two. They’re hardly outrageously high…. C). You do NOT know the uni your dc got into at all. I cannot possibly explain the massive amount of change that every uni has undergone - your experience will be a million miles away. D). FYs (which is what I assume you mean) have much lower fees now - they will be loss making, so no, they’re not cash cows.

Integrated Masters on the other hand….

What exactly is an integrated masters please?

DD only just finished her GCSES but I am wondering about the wisdom (or not) of going to university, and what it offers these days.

DS was offered a foundation year last year when he didn't do as well as expected in his exams. He considered it but decided instead to take a year out and reapply for a slightly different course with his grades in hand. During his year out he lived at home and took on paid work to save up a bit for uni. He now feels excited about going, whereas last he was feeling a bit defeated.

The cost was a consideration for us, a foundation year means another year of supporting him with accommodation and living costs, as he only gets the minimum maintenance loan. I think foundation years can be useful in some circumstances: e.g. if you've been out of study for a while, but you need to weigh up costs and benefits.

I think foundation years (i.e. an extra year prior to starting the degree) can be very useful if a student is sure that the area (not necessarily the specific degree) is for them. For example, if they have struggled with maths and want to go into engineering, then the foundation year can help them focus on specific areas of maths that are relevant, get used to the type of study at the university and provide them with the support to help them succeed overall. The cohorts are smaller for foundation year so they get to know the teaching staff. They generally use the same facilities as other students and fit directly into year 1 with freshers knowing their way around the university and with the rest of their cohort.

My friends dd is doing this as she wants to be a teacher and didn’t get the grades she needed. My eldest got CBB and need BBB but they let her in. Youngest also got CBB which was accepted at her uni.
My dds had a favourite choice but their second choice was a lower entry level as a safe option just in case.

My friends dd is doing this as she wants to be a teacher and didn’t get the grades she needed. My eldest got CBB and need BBB but they let her in. Youngest also got CBB which was accepted at her uni.
My dds had a favourite choice but their second choice was a lower entry level as a safe option just in case.

Universities are just not the same as when you graduated decades ago. Also grade inflation means A levels are just not the same.

The real reason for foundation courses is because students take the wrong A levels not that they got low scores. They change their minds about the course they wish to take. Possibly lost in translation now as Universities want bums on seats. DH was head of international recruitment for his dept many years ago and I also did my turn doing admissions or the poisoned chalice as it was known within my dept. It’s an awful mix of trying to get the best students and numbers to balance books and hit targets and crushing young people’s dreams.

If DD is set on this uni then the foundation year is a way in. You could also try casting the net wider and looking for a clearing offer from a different uni. This would avoid the extra year.

It’s normally a four year course where the degree awarded is at masters level.

The alternative is to study for a bachelors degree first and then a masters degree afterwards. Possibly at a different institution.

They are efficient in both time and cost. They have the option to leave after three years with a bachelors level degree if the student prefers, or doesn’t qualify to stay on for the masters level qualification

Just to clarify.

A foundation year is year 0 of a 3 year degree. It is offered when the student has not taken the correct combination of level 3 qualifications or when there is a lack of knowledge.

A foundation degree is a 2 year uni course that can be topped up to a full degree but is a qualification in its own right.

An Art foundation course was a course taken by arts students to prepare a portfolio of work and often included A Levels, this has been superseded by foundation diplomas.

A family member had to accept a foundation course degree as they were assigned lower grades during covid.

They were capable academically but to be honest it was good for them. They have autism and the year they weren't pushed academically gave them space to adjust to uni life. They graduated with a first class science degree. While they were capable of doing that without the foundation course, I think they would have really struggled to adjust as maybe not done as well without it.

I have a student who had to apply for a foundation year because her predicted grades were too low for the course she really wanted to do. she’s not in the UK so no opportunity to take a year out and improve her grades unf, so her parents will fork out for an extra year of fees, accommodation and living costs. Her final grades were ok, not great and she didn’t meet the conditional offer - but the university has just confirmed the place.

Isn’t itvjust that it Looks like higher grades, but not really higher grades?

So it used to be ABCDEU I think.

But now with A star ABCDEU it’s more like A star is the old A, A is the old B, b is the old C. So an offer today of ABB is actuslly BCC in real terms.

So A star AA is ABB. that’s what I thought anyway. 3 A stars is the old 3 As.

Medical degrees etc should be hard to come by, it’s a tough gig and not everyone is academic enough to achieve it. Blair made everything think they should go to uni and no real alternatives provided. We need real and achievable options for everyone.

As @titchy says, foundation years run at a loss now. It's not a money making scheme.

Thanks for the explanation about integrated master @Elbowpatch .

@titchy , your comment suggests that you don't think they're such a great idea. May I ask why?

My instinct is, it makes much more sense to separate bachelor's from master's.

Foundation years, on the other hand, sound good for DC like mine, who is having a tough time choosing A level options and should really be doing the International Baccalaureate instead. But we live in the wrong area and can't afford private.

Personally, I think the concept of doing only 3 A levels is absurd. 16 is no age to ask a child to 'specialise' on anything. Maybe foundation years are a clumsy way of patching it up?

Thanks all, really useful and interesting!

I did mean foundation year! Sorry

Yes, but it should also lead to greater success in the degree for marginal students.

Many universities do have significant drop out rates and foundation courses are proven to reduce this. So it is financially driven, but two fold between extra income year zero, having more successful degree students, and de risking the financial risk of drop out.

1. There has been an enormous amount of grade inflation.
2. I don't know about the general case, but Oxford offers a very small foundation year which is entirely free: tuition, accommodation, bursary all provided.

They ask for high grades for science because uni level science is hard.

I was one of the last years before A stars! I recall grade N - being a near miss too 🙈!!