Harsh opinion - is it fair to give work experience to students who in reality haven't the academic ability to enter the profession e.g. medcine?

[mids2019]

I work in a large NHSq trust and we are continually being asked by our widening participation team to take on work experience students for a range of medical careers including clinical science and medicine.
A lot of the children unfortunately are forecast 3/4/5s at GCSE yet schools and the widening participation team keep saying we should be giving work experience to these children who in reality won't be qualified for some professiions out of what I see is a misguided sense of fairness.

The medics push back at this saying they simply have no time and time would be wasted enthusing a child about a profession they would be unlikely to be able to do.

The medics are quite happy to take students from a locally high performing grammar school as a matter of course unofficially (and often due to parental connections)

God I agree. I actually find “widening participation” quite sinister. Where does it end? I don’t fancy being operated on or flown in a plane by someone without the right qualifications with 4s at GCSEs to “be kind” to them.

Agree. Many others will disagree though. I think we are doing teens a disservice by allowing them to think they can do more than they are clearly capable of. I work in farming and provide work experience. The number who think they are going to be farm managers when they struggle with basic addition is scary.

The medics are quite happy to take students from a locally high performing grammar school as a matter of course unofficially (and often due to parental connections)

This seems separate - if fairness is the issue then there needs to be only the one channel for arranging work experience, which is managed by someone who isn't swayed by "connections".

Actually thinking about it perhaps they are linked, and what's needed is a system overseen by someone at a remove, and with some minimum requirements, bar extenuating circumstances.

It's the time wastage really...children want work experience in careers they want to do but it is forgotten professionals have to allow this experience for free and it does take time. The medics have taken the view that they accept work experience but only from a grammar school with realistic potential entrants to the profession. There is then accusations of class bias and a failure to live up to the trust recruiting principles.

The obvious answer is surely these kids could be offered work experience but not shadowing medics but shadowing someone else?
If they get the grades for med school they will still have had experience of a hospital, and if not they will have seen how a 'less academic' hospital job works.

Set a minimum grade expectation but you can't limit to just grammar school.
Have a lower grade limit for the less academic careers.

I can see it being sensible to limit work experience to kids with a certain grade prediction. But saying grammar school only is very harsh. Kids from non grammar schools may also do well academically and shock, horror go on to be doctors!

Surely the answer is not to limit work experience to the grammar school kids but to stipulate a required level of GCSEs or predicated grades?

It’s a complete waste of time for all involved to offer work experience to kids who do not demonstrate the academic requirements to do that work.

It is wrong however that work experience is only given to those already in a privileged position with family connections.

The widening participation team need to be focusing their efforts on children who have the aptitude but not connections.

There is an "official' system for work experience given the size of the trust and it's status as a major enployer. The point is the medics bypass this official system entirely. I do have some sympathy because as a scientist I have had to spend time explaining a complex role to a student who just simply struggled with the concepts.

Fair enough to take them on for work experience in a range of roles - this presumably includes HCA etc.

my son did a week work experience at his local nhs trust which was a curated week with time on wards with someone showing them around, time spend volunteering at the entrance, talks from
people about accessing a variety of healthcare careers including nursing and HCA. The trust clearly put it together and it was a standard week that they offered and it didn’t take up too much of anyone’s time and was useful to a range of people.

My friends daughter was required to get a clinical work experience for her application to study medicine, but not a single place could offer her a placement because they had no capacity. Her father offered to drive her to any location within 100 miles to get the placement - still not a single place could offer. As a result a young woman who got all the grades to study medicine isn't studying medicine.

I agree. Minimum grade requirements, but no requirement to go to a grammar school or have parental connections.

Presumably an NHS trust has a wide range of careers represented that will suit many abilities? Can’t the widening participation team widen their remit that way?
Oh, and while it’s OK to limit access to the more academically demanding careers to kids with appropriate predicted grades, limiting it to particular schools is definitely NOT OK!

I work in financial services and we have had similar - teens who just won’t get anything like the qualifications necessary to get into the profession.

I think widening access to eg give the student with great grades but not the network / connections to get experience in these roles is worthwhile - but for someone who hasn’t got the academic record (or interest, quite frankly)… seems like a waste of everyone’s time.

You won’t be flown or operated on by someone without the right qualifications, that’s a ridiculous statement.

Not all children are fortunate enough to have been born into ambitious families who will have their children tutored to ensure they attain the grades they need for university etc, without which they might also be achieving 3/4/5s.
By giving work experience to underperforming but potentially capable young people, they may be given the determination they need to succeed. Yes it might be too late for them to improve on their predicted GCSE grades right now, but might give them the drive to continue studying and succeed further down the line. So many kids miss out on opportunities because their parents aren’t even making sure they go to school, let alone do homework etc. Give these kids a break.

Surely not only children from the local
grammer school will get the grades to enter these medical professions? I am sure that children in the local comp also have the potential to be high achievers and study medicine.

Is this for work experience at school? In theory the student needs to find a work experience placement in something they're interested in. So these students are interested in medicine, but unlikely to reach the level at GCSE'S, that's required? Is the students predicted grade shared with you then by the school, prior to a placement being given?????!!!! So the clinicians essential only want students taking part in the work experience if they're likely to achieve the grades they need and are genuinely interested? In part, I do agree with you, because it's a waste of time for staff. However, you can say that for a lot of businesses! Students have to find a work placement (usually off their own back) and some end up in a placement that they're not interested in, because no one wants to take work experience students, and they become desperate!! The business would also be wasting their time on a student who has little interest or even academic aptitude for the role!!!

This!

That's really short sighted.

There are jobs in the NHS (OK some are outsourced) for people who are not academic. Hospitals have porters, receptionists, CSSD, cleaners, cooks. It's a long time since I worked for the NHS but there were also things like medical imaging / photography.

And there are other careers that are more 'arts based' and I bet teenagers on art courses don't know about them. Things like prosthetics that are often thought about as being making legs and arms but the facial prosthetics and making glass eyes that match the existing eye.

Why not be realistic about the range of jobs that are available and let the kids get a good idea of what they can do?

You don’t have to shadow a Dr for it to be work experience. My work experience many moons ago was at a cottage hospital where I went out on visits with district nurses, physio, OT and midwives and did a lot of changing beds and feeding and washing patients and even stuffing envelopes in the office. This was considerably more beneficial than trailing a senior Dr round a hospital for the day.

I think there should be a scheme open to all with a wide experience like that. It is horrible that Drs arrange informal shadowing for their mates kids. I have refused similar requests and point them to the official system.

Most hospitals now have a blanket over 18s only policy, with exceptions where they curate a week specifically for work experience.

my son was interested in medicine and got experience through St John ambulance cadets - he was able to be trained up in first aid qualifications and go on duty with adults. He racked up over 100 hours on duty by the time of his university applications and got valuable experience in treating people (obviously with an adult there) and interacting with members of the public.

medicine admissions tutors know clinical experience is hard to come by. The admissions process for medicine is incredibly competitive and you need to get top grades in a levels plus do incredibly well in online academic tests (I have a degree from Cambridge and I had a go
at one of them and bloody hell it was hard!).

To be fair at GCSE level they may not have matured yet.
I wasn't great academically until later and did enter a scientific profession.
Nobody was predicting that when is was 15.
You don't know how kids develop

I assume you’re joking? How do you get from pre-GCSE work experience (yr 10?), to being operated on or flown by people without the right qualifications? Talk about a stretch!

I don’t remember predicted grades being anything to do with the process, when my 3 had to sort our their work experience. Nor was it expected that they had to choose something they intended to pursue as a career. How many kids know, at that age? The whole point is to open up their experience of the world of work, surely? Not to be talent spotting future surgeons or pilots. 🙄

Also, if a child does get enthused about working in a particular area, then you’d be amazed at what a bit of encouragement can do for their motivation to work hard. Just because someone is predicted a certain grade, doesn’t mean that’s all they are capable of. There might be many factors at play.

edited for typo

these are interesting points. Basically there is no mechanism for election of work experience students based on predicted grades so it very much is a case of pushing open doors. The trust do have a system as I have said previously but there is guidance from this team that the trust is a local inclusive employer embedded in the community and as such have to be completely open with applications. It's a bit of a mess in reality.

The use of a grammar school as a proxy for decent GCSE is deemed a pragmatic way forward to get round the fact that engaging with the widening participation team can lead to time wasting.