EPQ - DD17 did not apply need good news stories!

[Flyhigher]

Hi,
Daughter forgot to press the right buttons and now hadn't been accepted into the EpQ.

As she didn't apply.

So I need good news stories please - did yours do well in A levels anyway?

She wants to go to Leeds or a Russel group.

Good news stories please!

I'm stressing now that she's missed out on a great opportunity and also that she's made her A levels more stressful!

Help!

Has she applied through UCAS (not clear if she is year 12 or 13)? If so did her application include the EPQ? In which case she urgently needs to update the unis so they'd know she is not doing an EPQ.

Though I'm assuming she's year 12 because it would be quite silly not to do one till year 13!

Don't worry about it - unis are desperate these days, apply sensibly based on her predicted A level grades.

DD didn't do it; no regrets. She did decide to do a grade 8 music exam (having not done an exam since covid), which I think was partly to give her something to say if people asked why she hadn't done EPQ - but I think that would have been her friends at the sixth form where EPQ was compulsory, rather than universities, who were not interested in it for her subject.

I think it can be a really useful thing for some people, particularly if applying for niche courses or non-school subjects, where it can give them a chance to demonstrate their interest in something like archaeology, architecture or marine biology.

Your DD may well have had a luck escape. An EPQ is 'worth' slightly more than 1/2 an A level in UCAS points and can secure a one grade lower offer at some unis (but typically only if you secure an A in the EPQ). On the face of it, that sounds like a good bet.

However, for most people, an EPQ is more than 1/2 an A level's worth of effect; for some, that can dilute their main A level grades and so is counter productive. It seems to work best where the student is well organised, on top of their main A levels, have a clear inter-subject area of focus, and structured, well timed support from their school or college; that is a lot of conditionals.

Some posters will say you gain valuable research and referencing skills; yes, but at what time cost? The same skills can be picked up in NEAs in EngLit, History or Geography which form part of those A levels (subject to exam board).

Obviously a useful life lesson learnt here: for important online forms, slow down and make sure you selection the options you intended to select. Hope all proves fine for your DD.

*However, for most people, an EPQ is more than 1/2 an A level's worth of effect; for some, that can dilute their main A level grades and so is counter productive. It seems to work best where the student is well organised, on top of their main A levels, have a clear inter-subject area of focus, and structured, well timed support from their school or college; that is a lot of conditionals"

I think this is a good point. DD did hers on a literature related idea. The reading she did for it was more than half of the required books for her A level. But she is well organised and on top of her workload. Plus she's enjoyed doing it, so it hasn't felt like hard work. Deadline for submission is February.

Yes so this means they want at least the grades in the offer. So if it says AAA then they won't accept A*AB which would be the same tariff points.

Daughter is at Leeds now. She got 3 A* and A, no EPQ.

Most UK unis don't care about EPQ. They also don't care about DofE, your violin grade (unless you're applying for music), the sports you play. Unlike the US system they're not interested in breadth, roundedness or any extracurricular stuff that's unrelated to the degree.
The top unis are maniacally focussed on degree subject. They want to see top/good grades in 3 A levels. They'd rather see higher grades in 3 subjects than lower grades in 4, or an EPQ. They'd rather see super-curricular activity in the degree subject than extracurricular in anything else.
If the EPQ is directly relevant to the degree it might be worth doing. Otherwise it's irrelevant.
My impression is that some (mostly private) schools plug the EPQ as a way of showing prospective students/parents that they offer something more (than state comprehensives not offering EPQ?), whereas for the purposes of uni entry many students would be better to put all their effort into getting the highest grades they can in their 3 main subjects.

I like EPQs a lot.

In my experience, they teach independent study skills and actually allow students to pursue something that they are genuinely interested in. I have supervised a few EPQs and I was amazed at the quality some very average students produced when they selected their own topics and self directed their studies. They are also fantastic for building academic confidence.

Having said that, unis, especially the top ones are almost exclusively driven by grades. If you get top grades, no one will care about an EPQ. They are most useful for average students (or worse) looking to burnish their academic CVS. Some unis like them more than others and a good head of sixth form will know which ones care and which don’t.

But, to be honest, they are time consuming and, if you are a good student and not genuinely interested in an EPQ, the extra time will probably help your uni entry more than an EPQ.

Interesting and helpful post @Newbutoldfather. My insight is simply as a parent and so not as close or as broad as yours. My take is that some unis use EPQs as a measure of whether a high achieving student has 'extra capacity in the tank' and so the grade incentive is offered to attract the student who is less likely to buckle at uni; I would see U of Bath as an example of that approach in that a lower offer is often available for EPQ, or Core Maths, or a fourth A level if Maths already taken; the incentive is for 'doing something more' rather than the specific benefits of an EPQ.

I can see that a strong EPQ might help a student with less than stellar grades differentiate themselves. My DC did not take EPQs but, of their peers who did, the (relatively) weak academically were more likely to drop the EPQ midway or achieve Bs or Cs and possibly also compromise main A level grades. The key thing is for students and schools to be realistic; certainly at my DCs' comp EPQs were oversold and not terribly well supported. Interestingly, the school was much better in its promotion and support of core Maths as an adjunct to humanities and arts A levels.

The entry requirements (general for the university as a whole / individual for the specific course) will indicate whether offering the EPQ alongside A levels will influence the usual offer, and if so, for what minimum grade in the EPQ. From memory, achieving an A in the EPQ invoked a slightly lower offer from Southampton for a friend's DC, but wasn't mentioned at all by any of the universities applied for by any of our own DC, for three completely different other subjects, but one of the universities applied to being Southampton.

(Not wishing to be rude, but - this is a particular bugbear of mine - if your DD is specifically hung up, for whatever reason, on getting a place at a Russell Group university, I do hope that she has noticed how to spell the name...).

My ds is at at academic high achieving private school and they don't offer EPQ's, 3 good A level results are more important.

Think that’s a shame. EPQs give students a chance to study something that’s of real interest to them. We went to see the girls presentations on their subjects. Lots of eclectic topics some were really enthused. Can give them something to talk about if there is an interview. Sad it’s all about grades and results. More to life surely.

Dd applied to 3 universities one gave a lower grade requirement if you had a higher EPQ grade the other two universities did not so it’s by no means essential. The fact she’s missed the deadline tells you what she really feels and that’s fine too.

I'm another one who really doesn't think they're usually worth the effort.

They are probably best suited to very bright all-rounders who do science & maths A levels and miss writing and research. Or possibly for someone who has a real interest in a non-examined subject and has the time and motivation to do the EPQ.

Personally, I think one of mine probably dropped marked in her coursework as she had the EPQ (about which there was no passion) so the EPQ was a detriment rather than a benefit. For others, extra-curriculars that you enjoy are usually a better bet unless you really have the time and drive to do everything.

@TheaBrandt ,

Great post!

It was lovely to see the confidence academically less successful pupils got from making a presentation on subjects they really cared about. And the study skills that they learned (managing deadlines, referencing, reading around a subject).

It depends what you think is important in education.

I think it is a net negative in terms of UCAS and university entry but a massive net positive in being an educated human being.

Seems odd a pupil didn’t like their EPQ when it’s them that chooses the topic! Pupils did theirs on whales/grandmothers dress/nature v nurture/freedom of speech. We thought it was a great opportunity for them to do a mini phd on something they are interested in. But likewise it’s absolutely fine not to.

I’d have liked DS to do one, specifically because of keeping up writing skills when studying mostly maths-related subjects. But he hasn’t. He also dropped his fourth A-level. Nonetheless, he has several offers for physics at RG universities.

She leaves applications to the last minute.

DDs school do the EPQ in year 12 and have the (draft) results when they fill in their UCAS forms. Works quite well as it gets it out of the way. They don't have to do it but was good for DD as got reduced offers for all her choices if she's gets an A ( or B for one uni) in the EPQ. She knows she has already so it's helpful when deciding what to firm and insure.

DD did three A levels only, had no interest in the EPQ, got five offers, went to Oxford, has just graduated with a double first. Her older siblings said the EPQ was tedious/ a waste of time so she took their cue.

My DS abandoned his EPQ for health reasons, got the grades he needed and got into the uni he wanted for his specific course with no issues.

I have two who did one and two who didn't. The two who did both did degree courses involving a dissertation and found the EPQ was a good grounding in the skills required for the dissertation.

DD didn't do an EPQ. She did 3 A levels and got 5 offers including Leeds and is now studying Law at Oxford.

Her school (a super selective grammar which sends high numbers to Oxbridge/Russell Group Unis) doesn't encourage EPQs.

Epq has helped my daughter as it counts towards her points total for her course/uni. But I don't think this applies for many RG, if any.

But what else does your daughter have on her cv to show aspiration, diligence, relevant work experience etc. I would say that's more relevant aspect for most RG courses, rather than points.

If she's learned from this that's a bad idea then maybe more valuable than an EPQ!

(My take is that if it's something the student is really interested in they may be worthwhile as an end in themself, but not as a means to an end)

DD's school didn't push EPQ ( a few kids expected to stroll through A levels did them).

Oddly enough Leeds is the only Uni we're waiting for (offers in from Exeter, Sheffield, Lancaster and Surrey)- Biosciences