Does your average teacher notice class divisions amongst phpils?

[mids2019]

Just can from another thread where social class was being discussed and I was wondering if teachers were aware of class divides (or uniformity) within their school and does it impact their professional role?

My daughter is in a comprehensive with a mixed demographic and there seems to be a natural segregation between those that would consider themselves middle class and those who consider themselves working class. Is this often the case?

Yes I was always called posh at school. To be fair it didn’t seem to be said unkindly to them I just was posh. Wasn’t bullied or anything

Riser

That is a really interesting insight.

I get the impression that there is a tension in the comprehensive system where children do seem to gravitate towards 'people like them'. I don't quite know the complex dynamics of friend making but it does seem the case pupils do split according to what may be loosely called.class.

A lack of grammar schools makes contrasts clear in terms of educational expectation and I do think it is more likely to have friendships form between people of similar aspiration and intellect. You are quite right teachers have no influence on this but it must make an interesting observation.

@mids2019 But isn't that true of life in general - even adults tend to gravitate towards people who are similar to them?

Ok just teacher not average teacher......

The main divide I noticed among the boys was the sporty Vs nerdy (sorry couldn't think of another word) divide. Being rich or poor didn't seem to matter the richer computer nerds didn't care at all about hanging around with the poor ones.

Probably very weak correlation considering that social capital is generally free or very cheap to access. Plus income and class aren't related anyway.

Associating 'cultural capital' like reading and museum/NT visits with being middle class only works if this is based on offensively stereotyping the working classes, which is how these threads always go.

You're basically assuming that the people in the library or NT place, that you know nothing about, are MC because they aren't wearing a track suit or yelling at their DC.

Adults do this, so why are you surprised that children do this.

We tend to feel more comfortable around people who look, sound and act like us.

In the school I teach at (very diverse), you can definitely tell the children who have parents who value education, extra curricular, music, theatres, museums etc, and these children tend to come from higher income houses. They are more likely to host playdates, have birthday parties, have more free time, cleaner homes, better diets and generally have calmer lives.

Not rtft yet but as a primary teacher I’d say how lovely it is to have children from different backgrounds mix and play together.
I think society has a lot to answer for wrt to classism, racism etc because certainly in lower primary they are all willing to mix and play with different classmates.

I think as they get older ‘cultural capital’ will definitely play a part in the groups they settle into, for example if you’ve no access to football club you’re less likely to hang out with others that do, if you are more able because you’ve had more opportunities, been read and talked to etc then you’ll spend more time working with others of similar ability so are more likely to befriend them.
(and yes we can 100% tell which children are read to/with at home)

edited to correct spelling mistake

I think people in lower paid jobs generally don’t spend money on going to National Trust properties. Other expenditure is far more pressing. I suspect NT membership would confirm this.

Most people from the upper middle classes could afford Eton. They just might not want to. Class and money usually go together in my view. No rich person is “working class” and living in poor housing, with no car and the minimum wage and no holiday! Well off is the ability to acquire middle class ideals and many working class have made the transition. They are no longer working class.

Unfortunately I think there is a link between pupil premium pupils and lack of cultural capital though. It's one of the things pp funding is often earmarked for. Certainly low vocabulary rates are often seen in children who qualify for pp. There will be many very well supported children on pp too and I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I would be surprised if there's not a correlation with income. Appreciate you've commented that income is different to class though.

A top hat on a peg in the cloakroom is a bit of a pointer.

I teach primary in an area of considerable deprivation where the norm is Pupil Premium / Free School Meals. Many parents work or study. Children live in social housing, hotels or privately rented accommodation (which is often crowded, unsafe and otherwise problematic).

Within this cohort of seemingly shared socioeconomic experience, we still see different groupings as described by PPs upthread; state of uniform and shoes, how quickly reading records fill up etc. We're in a city, with many museums, libraries, galleries, city farms, youth clubs and other venues open for free to the public or offering free or heavily discounted experiences and activities (cinemas, theatres, music and sports venues etc) and a cohort of children always seems to be accessing these, due to their parents signing up for email updates, reading the local authority primary school bulletin and generally putting themselves in the loop. Much of this is what is deemed 'cultural capital' but we're always mindful to include less 'culturally elitist' activities when we consider the range of CC our pupils access -attending church, mosque, gurdwara or temple, volunteering, community centre activities, home language tuition, cultural celebrations etc, all form part of an individual's cultural capital.

I'd say that, just like in more affluent or mixed areas, parental engagement in their child's learning ‐in and out of school- is what informs so many things, both socially and academically.

Oh get lost with your reverse snobbery. It's people like you who perpetuate class divides calling other kids "posh" etc.

I work in a school. There are not many "proper" MC families at ours, more lower MC and the majority are WC.
We definitely don't get involved in friendships based on class , or anything else, unless they turn sour and need intervention. We have kids of doctors being best friends with kids in foster care.

Same with DD's primary. We were the "poor" relative. But she had loads of friends and they loved coming to our house, no issues with parents not allowing them or looking down on us.

The kids mix mostly based on play based interests rather than anything else.

I did worry about secondary, we're even poorer now in comparison, but again it seems to be character and interests that makes the groups tick. You could fit 3 of our flats in her best friend's house and still get some change .

Of course we are aware of social class in our students, as anyone else is aware of social class in the people around them. And school uniform is not quite the leveller that some believe it to be.

I wouldn't say that social class is consistently what creates the divisions between different groups in comprehensive schools though. Some groups are like that. Most span the class range a bit more. In a very predominantly mc school I guess it's more likely that a bunch of less mc students might stuck together.

I teach in a girls' grammar school that's very diverse in social backround, race amd geographical area. I'd say the majority of friendship groups are pretty diverse.

There is a huge link between children on PP and low attendance, low attainment, more likely to be "working towards" in maths and English.

It is why places like Hampton Court have offered £1 tickets to people on UC. However, I would bet money on there still not being a huge amount of families using these offers due to time, fuel costs, access to cars, the inclination to even check on Hampton court website to see the offer.

Of course this happens but I'm surprised if teachers have time to notice! My DC attended private school and i laugh when I read the posts on MN about people sending this DC to state school because they'll mix with all sorts. I laugh because my experience of my friends is that their children mix with people like them, in some cases I have seen parents actively discourage friendships with the 'wrong' sorts or those from certain areas if town.

With the VAT rise we're going to see an increasing divide in state schools with MC areas effectively creating their own free private ish (because regardless of what is claimed you cannot recreate a private education in the state sector). Laughable really, let's face it folks this country is all about every man for himself!

When I was a secondary teacher, I was definitely aware of the background of the kids - firstly kids from certain catchments came in on specific school buses. Secondary, as someone has already mentioned, the middle class kids came with more cultural capital. So in subjects like modern languages etc they were more likely to have experience of foreign travel. In subjects like music they were more likely to have had the opportunity to learn an instrument.

It's hard to disguise at secondary level tbh. Although didn't necessarily translate to better or worse behaviour. I've taught very privileged kids who've been absolute arseholes and very deprived ones who've been absolute delights and vice versa. Teenagers are a law unto themselves....

Practically speaking, all teachers will know which of their students are in receipt of pupil premium funding as there is an emphasis on ensuring they make good progress. I am also aware of children who have holes in uniform, shoes etc. and come to school hungry and help them / suggest ways for the school to help them.

My teacher training also included content on education and class, e.g. looking at trends and theory on class and education.

Otherwise I think we use social markers like you do elsewhere in society. As previous posters have said, these may be based on stereotypes and prejudice.

My DC went/go to a faith comprehensive with a city wide catchment. 80% of the pupils from school's faith 20% from other faiths. Very mixed economically, this is not a rich city. Both DC have very economically mixed friendship groups. If you're looking at social class by occupation of parents then again both have very mixed friendship groups. We live in a standard three bedroom semi of which we are owner occupiers. My younger DC is very aware of economic privilege as she has friends who live in rented houses with very little security. Older DC staunchly socialist at this point.
Cultural capital is an interesting one. DC2 went on an art trip abroad for GCSE art and one of the pupils in her group had never been to an art gallery before, despite the fact that there is a free and pretty good gallery in our city. Barriers to accessing cultural capital are significant even when the activities are free other than bus fare/parking or petrol costs. Schools need to do as much as possible to offer access to experiences out of a child's usual offer. And I include my own DC in that too as we all hold barriers that we are less aware of or haven't considered.

I teach in a girls' grammar school that's very diverse in social backround, race amd geographical area. I'd say the majority of friendship groups are pretty diverse. @AllProperTeaIsTheft but the commonality here will be parents who are very interested/ engaged in their child's education as you have to make an active choice to send your child there. I'd say that is also the case for the majority of the parents at my DC's school as it's a faith school and not the local default option. Perhaps that is what encourages diverse friendships?

I work in primary with much younger children. We have a very mixed socio-economic background, and have children form most walks of life.

The children just all mix together.

Obviously as teaching staff we have a good idea of each child's background, but that isn't obvious from just looking at who plays with who.

I think there can be.

Dh is a huge fan of comprehensives because he says that they give everyone a chance to mix with people from all backgrounds. But I notice that anyone he hung out with at school or has kept up is very very similar background to him.

With my dc it has varied more. One of them was in a real mix of backgrounds, one much less so, and the third I don't know!