Does your average teacher notice class divisions amongst phpils?

[mids2019]

Just can from another thread where social class was being discussed and I was wondering if teachers were aware of class divides (or uniformity) within their school and does it impact their professional role?

My daughter is in a comprehensive with a mixed demographic and there seems to be a natural segregation between those that would consider themselves middle class and those who consider themselves working class. Is this often the case?

I only notice this based on geography. Kids who live nearby tend to hang out together.

I tend to see it more with girls. Made up, fake eyelash, croc and sock wearers club together. The rest, not so much.

Of course

I would think catchment areas possibly meant there would be more middle class state schools in some places and more working class schools in others. I was just curious about how children manage their different life experiences in schools; do they naturally merge with those from a similar background?

Teachers aren’t exempt from the class system themselves, so why wouldn’t they notice social class among their pupils?

Of course teachers do.

They are allowed to mix in state schools.

The posh children are in public school away from the working class.

At secondary, definitely.

The kids are usually aware. Teachers too.

It's fairly common for schools to have for example a mostly middle class catchment with some working class included.

Sorry not enforced segragation.....I just thought there would be a natural grouping of children with their own social class. Maybe this doesn't happen so schools are a good class levller? I don't know.

My DD is training to be a teacher. She is currently in Year Two and one of the big things that shows is not necessarily class division but "cultural capital".

Things like who is being read to at home, goes on holiday/travels, eats/recognises a variety of foods, vocabulary used etc.

It is so fascinating to see how differently prepared children are when they go to school-teachers def notice.

I wonder how strong the correlation is between social capital and class? Possibly middle class parents can afford opportunities to increase social capital more readily. The issue of reading is fascinating because I get the impression there are some families that view reading books as a middle class pursuit and certainly don't engage with schools in promoting a love of reading.

Isn’t social capital one of the reasons we start school early in this country, and certainly why 2yo childcare funding was first introduced because so many children were not being exposed to many things other families take for granted, and I don’t mean foreign holidays but things like books

My children are at a local London primary with a mixed demographic - they are still key stage 1 but I would say in the class they are pretty mixed at the moment and play with all children. However, outside of class divisions are more obvious - middle class parents are more likely to host parties and play dates etc. which are generally attended by other middle class parents. Not exclusively of course but culture / religion / language also play a part.

Teachers can't force friendships true. I was just wondering if it was obvious that friendships do form with class as a factor.

I think it's more income/opportunity than class. I know people argue it's the same thing but we definitely have 'posh' old money mums whose kids uniform doesn't fit right and shoes always look about a day away from falling apart, and we also have 'working class' families in trades who own giant houses, multiple cars and always look immaculate (and go out and do cultural things all the time).

Teachers at DSs school are, IMO, very good at supporting those who have had less opportunity at home - whatever that looks like. Even just in small things - letters about trips go home without any prices on/details of cost for families on FSM. The Nativity leads went to those who aren't the lead in any upcoming external gymnastics/ballet/Stagecoach/dance recitals (DS tells me they asked, and when he mentioned he was in a few he was promptly cast as a rock 😂)
The 'library' in DSs classroom always needs donations, because lots of books disappear home with certain students once they're 'getting a bit old' ~ even if donated new the previous week 😉

I think they do later on to an extent. Currently DS is 5 and is friends with everyone 😂

I remember from being a teen there's a kind of natural selection - no one looks at another and goes 'I reckon we're middle class, let's be friends' but hobbies/interests often guide friendships, and these are often based on parents disposable income.

I used to work in a very mixed demographic school near a hospital so we had Doctors and nurses children, quite a few engineering type families due to boat manufacturers and some growing up on farms and also covering one of the most disadvantaged areas in the UK.

Children tend to mix more with who they lived closest to and had gone to Primary school with at least in KS3.

As they move up the school sometimes these mix abit more and you hear them talking about meeting at Xs house as "it's massive".

From a first impressions view, you could tell more who had engaged parents which isn't necessarily determined by class, those children who had been read to, those who went on holiday, or visited London or went to the theatre or museums. We have plenty of free or very cheap venues around us so it wasn't a money issue, it just wasn't a priority for some families. We lived by the beach and many of our students had never been (and I mean I could see the sea from my classroom).

Parents have different values too, some latch key children with high achieving but often working late parents and those with more lax parents for other reasons would mix more as there was less supervision and not always for the better. Those parents who were more involved had their children in more clubs and activities and sometimes friendships from these carried over into school.

You can tell by the clothes and colour of the shirts, sometimes the richer more rural students are messier / look like they've been dragged through a hedge backwards as they've been up X hours already but whilst their shirts might be greyer they have good quality shoes on and fresh uniform when needed and were generally quietly confident, opposed to those whose shoes were literally falling apart, grey shirts, couldn't concentrate as they hadn't eaten properly, generally look pale and shallow and either big bravado characters or extremely meek. Generally the poorer families had more children so we had some families with 8+ children but no quiet place to study or expected to look after siblings. We had lots of families that had children with other disabilities that has a knock on effect of what the family can do and access etc.

But overall I dont think it's directly a class thing, it's a parent engagement and priorities thing.

I think it must be very obvious when you look at cultural capital. Certain pursuits are seen as very middle class and it doesn't matter how many free vouchers the National Trust give out - if you don't feel comfortable or welcome somewhere, you're not going to go there at the weekends... it's why school trips are so important.

In my experience kids by year 3 or 4 are very much "birds of a feather flocking together" - friendships are based on having interests in common (including meeting up outside of school facilitated by parents) so there'll be a class divide.

Only kids with a certain level of privilege (and that isn't necessarily class-based, but it's part of the picture) will be ferried to a party, costing £8+ for a gift and needing organisation and transport. It doesn't mean that kids won't play with / talk to those different from them, just that the foundations on which to grow the friendship might not be there.

@mids2019 I think the history of education helps us here. Certainly for people who originate from this country.

The great leveller for 30 years were the grammar schools and technical high schools. The 11 plus. Unfortunately those in secondary schools didn’t fare so well. However the education received enabled many to graduate from working class to middle class via education and subsequent employment. My own family benefitted from this. Plenty of others did too. Many intelligent people were denied a good education before 1944. Afterwards we gave more a better chance and plenty from very humble backgrounds gained middle class employment. So they changed class and their parents were proud. As a result, we now have a large middle class who mostly value education. They are not intending their dc to be working in a factory production line or collecting rubbish.

Then, we wanted comps and not grammars. We also had plenty who were happy enough without much of an education because after the war, there was manual and unskilled work that paid well. So no need for qualifications. Obviously when these industries began to fail, the upwardly mobile realised education was the way to a better living. Others stayed firmly working class. Their views were not going to shift. They also got replaced in society by immigrants with different values and some with very high educational expectations.

So moving on to school: most of us make friends with “people like us”. We don’t seek out people with differing views, vastly different jobs or different backgrounds that are at odds with our own. DC are no different. Dc might gel for all sorts of reasons, music, sport, holidays etc but lots don’t step outside their background and some aren’t encouraged to do so. Teachers aren’t responsible for friendships. They are responsible for a harmonious school but most DC are happy in their school community but you cannot force mixing,

Where I live, we have grammar schools. The independent schools are not full of “posh” dc. There are plenty of dc at the grammars whose parents can afford private. The private schools have 11 plus “failures” in them. Obviously not Wycombe Abbey but you need to be bright and well off to go there. The really well off use “name” schools like WA and Downe House and boys go to Harrow or Eton. They aren’t the same people as those paying because they didn’t get a grammar place. The schools catering for the non grammar dc are existing because they offer a solidly middle class education away from dc the parents don’t want their dc mixing with and are choosing a better all round educational product. So again, people want to be with “people like us” in all types of education, and comps will struggle to change that.

Dd is at state but has a wide circle of private school friends. Over Christmas they met some boys from a school “even posher than Marlborough” I am intrigued. Which school near Cheltenham is posher than Marlborough?!

When I was in high school we sat in Alphabetical order in class. I cant imagine the chaos that would have ensued if we chose where we sat every lesson.

As a casual observer I literally cannot tell the difference between dds state and private school friends.

Also there was a lot of "inverse snobbery" when I was at school. Being called posh was an insult. The "cool kids" boasted about hanging out in the rougher areas of our city and basically dressed like scallies.