CAT assessment question

[Franny1]

Can someone help? My DS is at a private junior school (year 4) and they do the winter assessments in a way that they say is standard practise and I find odd and unhelpful. They say they sit it for “their current year 4 group” and that it may be “more challenging than usual” ie it includes year 4 work they haven’t covered yet.

This means my DS has come out with a maths score of 109 even though he’s in the top set, which speaking to people with kids higher in the school is to be expected (eg a friend says her son got 102 in winter and 129 in summer!). I guess I have a few questions:

1. is this standard practise?

2. if it is standard practise what kind of figures are you seeing in winter? (By contrast my DS got 120 in English but I guess maybe it’s easier to guess at harder comprehension than maths topics they just haven’t covered.)

3. what should I be expecting my DS to be getting now if I’m hoping he’s generally above 120 with CAT scores in terms of looking at secondary schools? (His current school and a secondary so they are very much not a prep and not very helpful when it comes to giving you clear info regarding preparing them for elsewhere.)

thanks!

CAT tests don’t test for taught subjects. They test reasoning. In fact they test some specific aspects of Verbal and Non-Verbal reasoning and children are. It expected to study.

the score is given as a SAS (Standardise Age Score) with 100 being national average. And selective privates wanting 120

in theory children’s CATS remain stable but also reportedly can move by around 10 points (my daughters did after her dyslexia interventions kicked in and to some degree with familiarity with questions)

Testing in prep schools in September of the new year/ term is standard practice.

Some London state schools also use them to make sure they have an academically representative range of children in their cohort.

google it!

Hi @DarkSynonym CATs do test for maths and English, that’s what I’m talking about here.

I have absolutely googled it and know all about the national average and other things (eg my school’s minimum requirement for the end of the year is 115). But I’m talking about something different here, as described, which is testing things before they’ve learnt them, and having no benchmark for what the numbers then mean.

As someone said above they're Standardised Assessment Scores, so standardised according to age. So a dc who is 8:11 would have a different SAS than an 8:01 age child if they achieved the same raw score. The parents based on specific curriculum content. They assess verbal and non verbal reasoning.
Lots of schools do CAT testing in September at the start of the school year (sometimes to ascertain Sets in secondary schools).

It’s not testing before they learn really, as the CATs are supposed to be more about innate potential and ability (although practice of the types of will likely make you better).
They should stay somewhat stable but as another poster has said, you will get fluctuations normally. Most schools I know do them in Sept so it’s a level playing field and they are age-adjusted.
So 109 maybe just what your son’s standard is….

The Maths in the CAT test is quantitative reasoning and the English is verbal reasoning. It doesn't actually do Y4 maths content - CAT4 is a test you can't really study for, and is supposed to be a test of natural intelligence.

I wouldn't give it a huge amount of importance from a senior school entry pov. All schools have their own tests, so I would focus on those.

We didn't experience twice yearly testing. From year 3 they alternated CATs and PIPs annually. As the scores age adjusted it feels unnecessary. So I doubt there is any need or system requiring it as standard. What happens if he is not achieving 120 at the end of the year?

There are often separate English and Maths progress tests in the summer term. These do test the taught curriculum and are also given as a SAS score.

The CAT doesn’t test the taught curriculum but innate potential, as said above. It is based on ‘batteries’ of reasoning broken into verbal, non-verbal, quantitative and spatial.

The school ‘may’ have a target for progress tests, but CATs are not designed to show either achievement or if a child is working hard. (They are more like an IQ test, but also aren’t quite an in test).

But the school is SAYING they expect a much lower score in winter and much higher in summer. So none of this makes sense to me. Unless these are not CATs. But they are measured out of 141, and cite the national average as 110 and their own expectations as 115-plus for the end of the year.

What happens if he doesn’t get 120-plus in CATs generally is that he can’t apply to the secondary schools we want him to in London. And his previous end of year scores WERE 120 plus.

I was more asking if anyone else with children at junior private schools has experienced this, I understand how CATs/SAS work.

They do this in state schools as well, but instead of CATs they do a math and English test at start and end of year. It covers concepts for math they have not been taught yet....and I assume by end of year they are taught it?

“But the school is SAYING they expect a much lower score in winter and much higher in summer.”

Those are Progress tests. And yes they do them in state primary schools too in the Autumn Term in Maths, English and Reasoning. And yes, the Maths is harder than they have been taught. For example, multiplication and fractions at the start of year 3 that they have not learnt but can deduce if they are very bright.

Cats test verbal reasoning (links to English but Is not English) and non verbal or quantitative reasoning (links to maths but it not maths).

You can buy looks to practice them as they are common 11+ tests.

Try the bond books.

amzn.eu/d/dUauCrh

Speaking as a maths teacher, the quantitative reasoning one does not test maths directly but it certainly is easier the more maths you have done.

As someone said, the CATs usually aren’t important for secondary school although I understand some heads include them in the reference. We aren’t given them in our schools as standard, you need to ask to be given them.

@Choccybuttonsandprosecco for selective London secondaries knowing average CAT scores is important for gauging which ones your child can reasonably apply to, even if the schools then have their own entrance exams as well.

@Franny1 - are you actually wanting to know your DCs underlying ability across the verbal, numerical, spatial aka CAT4 type testing so that you can then choose the right secondary environment?

Some people go to a reputable educational psychologist for that.

I also do not think it is just about applying. I would never send a more average child to a highly selective state or private school where everyone is expected to attain 7-9s across all GCSEs. Simply because it would not be fair on them and they may well likely attain better in a different environment. The very selective schools take high innate ability as a given and teach accordingly (fast etc and beyond) and there is an expectation to shine elsewhere too.

To answer some of the above questions:

1. I really just wanted to know if other people have experienced the scenario I outline above at a private junior school. It sounds like the assessments I’m describing may well be progress rather than CATs even though the total is the same.

2. I wouldn’t want to send my son somewhere he wasn’t well suited either. As I’ve mentioned there is a huge gap between what he’s just got and what he gets end of year (which IS 120-plus). I’m just information gathering and trying to make sure I understand the system (since a lot of people on here and elsewhere talk about average CAT scores, and since I don’t now seem to be able to include the assessment scores he’s just done , that’s difficult for me to gauge).

OP, year 4 is too early to tell how competitive they will be for 11+. CAT4 (and any standardised test) are proxies. Even CAT4 scores improve, which are meant to track more innate ability, particularly as kids mature and approach the 11+. I know kids who were hovering around 115-120 in years 4 & 5, and then raised this to 125+. BUT: the super-selective schools (e.g. Westminster, SPS, City) are SO competitive that everything comes into play. Having an average CAT4 score (across 4 subjects tested) above 130 is a strong indication that a child is suited to try for those schools. By contrast, 120-130 is really a long shot, in my experience (of course it can and does happen but then one worries about how the kids will fare once they are there - constant tutoring?). I can see why you want to have a sense early on, but you need to wait until the middle of year 5, to have a clearer picture.

Speaking from experience, the CAT score range is huge across a school intake. You cannot possibly target the top 3 day schools with a cat score of 110 but you certainly can target almost every other London school with it. CAT is only used as an add-on in the admissions process and is not taken as a criterion. Let's say a student had a CAT score of 135, but their admissions test had a terrible score, they can then deduce that it was a bad day for a bright child and may choose to do follow-on tests.

Personally I think London has gone crazy and kids are sitting far too many tests. We did 4 grammars including 2 lots of stage 2s and it is was exhausting for DC. Some friends and colleagues’ kids are doing grammar and multiple private schools (think
5 or even more and some with several stages!)
It is better for the child to be honest and clear about their ability and do what people used to do which is 3-4 schools max 1 ambitious, 1 target and 1 banker. Or at most, 2 target. So it is good to understand their underlying ability by the end of year 5 before one applies. Also the tests do all differ and being really familiar with the preferred school test is going to help. Rather than running around doing multiple schools becoming exhausted and multiple rounds.

GL Assessment, who administer the CAT4, also offer Progress Tests in English, Math and Science. CEM offer similar InCAS assessments in Reading, Spelling, Mathematics and Arithmetic. GL report the results using the same standardized scoring scale, i.e., mean 100, standard deviation 15, capped and floored at 141 and 59, that they report for CAT4. I believe CEM do as well.

Even though they are provided by the same companies, the progress exams are meant to be measures of achievement whereas CAT4 are meant to be measures of some sorts of ability.

These progress exams are supposed to be normed to a "national average" of 100 for a given age. If a school is making more than national average progress, you would expect their scores to increase between snapshots.

Btw, all these scores need to be read with the relevant standard errors of measurement, about 5 points for single CAT4 exams and 3 points for the composite average. What that basically means is that kids have good days and bad days and that in 2/3 of sittings, their score will be within 5 points of their "true score". Some kids will see their CAT4 scores go up 10 points between Years 5 and 6 when they themselves have not changed. But some will see them go down 10 points. The national average should remain 100.

Is anyone actually reading my question? I’m asking very specifically whether anybody at a junior private school has had a similar experience where the winter assessments are done in a way where the scores (which seemed to be CAT but are perhaps not given the school explicitly saying they expect them to go up ) are expected to be much lower now than in the summer.

Would be super grateful if people would help me out there and stop using this thread as a reason to discuss private secondary requirements and whether they’re fair/beyond my son’s reach etc. It’s the precise system my school uses in trying to understand, not secondary requirements or my son’s suitability to them.Thanks!

The flip side is that a highly selective school may infer that a student who did "well enough" on English and Math admissions tests but had a CAT4 score of "only" 110 achieved the result because of heavy tutoring and mark them down. Indeed, SPGS, CLSG and the grammars that use VR/NVR in their first round assessments don't even give children an opportunity to sit an achievement paper if they don't hit a cutoff on the first round "ability" paper.

I was referring to private(prep) in my answer.

I had children at a private prep.

They did cats in the autumn and progress tests throughout the year.

As you don't seem to know whether the tests your child did were cats or progress tests no-one can really advise you.

You seem to be saying that your child sat a test and you don't know what the test is but it's been normed the same as cats test. That could be almost any test. Hell I work in the state sector and I could put our year 7 end of term tests through the process to get a similar set of results. It's meaningless without you knowing what the test actually was.

Goodness me. I think people are just trying to help. The answer seems to be no, people haven’t been told by their school that scores go up generally and no-one seems to repeat them in a year anyway. Surely the best thing is to ask the school for all the details and then you can be a bit more sure what you’re being given?