Discussion - School is NOT beneficial to young children at all!

[shappyred]

The UK education system is antiquated and damaging to children. Formal learning would ideally begin from age 7-8, until then, children need free-play, social time and lots of outdoor time.

What are the best alternatives to this? Home Ed? Forest school? Also, it's very clear that parent/child attachment becomes strained and kids become peer attached at school, this is wrong on all levels!

What type of provision could work better? Private schooling it seems isn't much better.

A play based provision from 5-8 year olds?

I'm very interested in this subject..

Agree. I’ve had children in English schools and now in Scottish. I know which I prefer.
My older two started at just turned four. The pressure of homework and formal learning was ridiculous.
My youngest started at 5 and half in Scotland. Tiny school, which helps, no homework except reading and spends a good proportion of the day playing.

If nothing else threads like this show us that children are not all the same and a one size fits all system does not work for lots of children.

None of mine particularly thrived in school. My daughter got through, my sons ended up being reluctantly HE as school slowly destroyed them. I could see that other children got loads out of it though (although mental health crisis at year 5 + was alarming and widespread).

I wish schools could show some variety in approaches so that all children can flourish. Round here schools that were once nurturing are headed in a direction set by Academies, and it’s not good, particularly for dc with SN.

This is why I chose Waldorf. Not perfect, but much more developmentally-appropriate in my opinion to start formal learning the year kids turn 7 and to keep a lot of play, outdoor learning, learning with hands and free time, honestly, all the way through the primary years.

Perhaps try to explain the issue yourself rather than just pointing people to read a book?

Also, it's very clear that parent/child attachment becomes strained and kids become peer attached at school, this is wrong on all levels!

Is this clear? Really?
It's not my experience at all.

It depends on the child, both my girls hate school, one is autistic but extremely gifted and sees school as a prison, she struggles with the strict uniform policy (uncomfortable blazer that must stay on all day), tights in winter or trousers which she also hates, yes school can offer adjustments for clothing but then she's highlighted again that she's different and kids ask why she's wearing that etc.

I did home education 8 months with her and she's covered all of year 8 (her current year) and started year 9 curriculum, she's so well behaved but hates being among 1500 other people day after day, rules, social pressure, pressure to achieve.

My youngest who's 9 in y4 hates school as she's not very sporty or academic and so hast found her peer group, she cries everyday about going to school, from my own personal experience it's hell. I do feel jealous that other children love it and their parents have no issues, unfortunately it's a daily battle for me and I have to work, they have to attend so I've got another 9 years of this.

I think children benefit from lots of movement and child-led free play during those ages. Nature and playgrounds so they can navigate compromising, arguing, balance, risk taking etc. Helping them engage their core so they can hold themselves will improve posture, breathing and development.
Many clubs are based around sports which is structured play. They need space for imagination and all the sit down stuff can be done a few years later.
I agree with you on the the detachment with parent and child and leaning into peers. It might also explain the after school burn out that many littles experience.

I think child led play based learning with free access to the outdoors until the end of year 2 would be ideal.

Are those the Steiner schools, who teach reincarnation and karma - that illness and disability in this life is caused by poor behaviour in a past life?

We have friends in Germany, where they start school at 6. Almost everyone sends their kids to Kindergarten for at least a year before, where they play but do some bits of learning, similar to Reception. Once they start school it seems to be very formal very quickly. I think it would be a big jump to start school without any Kindergarten provision beforehand.

One benefit of starting Reception younger is almost everyone goes, so everyone gets the same opportunities. Whereas nursery provision can often be more variable in terms of cost and availability. This can mean differences in who accesses it and the quality of provision, which is less equitable.

I don't really understand threads like this which are premised on this being a new thing. Surely the vast majority of us who grew up in England will have started school at the same age as our children are starting now? I definitely started primary school in the academic year in which I turned 5 back in the 1980s (and was at a pre-school before that). It's not a new thing. Generations of us seem to have grown up without being impacted at all by starting school at 4.

That's definitely not the case in the Netherlands. Children learn to read there when they are in the school year that they turn 7 in. They will learn some, but not all of the letters before they get there in reception.

Most children go to reception when they are 4 (though you can start at 5).

I personally think learning to read at age 4 or 5 is too early for the majority of children. My DD is very bright and taught herself how to read at age 5. I genuinely think that was when she was ready.

Oh and there is very little homework here in the Netherlands. DD7 is now getting her first homework which is learning the times tables.

She does get two books from the school library to take home every three weeks but it is not mandatory to read those.

Also, it's very clear that parent/child attachment becomes strained and kids become peer attached at school, this is wrong on all levels!

I don’t disagree with you, but their parents are often not free to be with them anyway.

The attachment already gets strained almost from 9 months - a year old in many cases, when maternity leave ends and the child then needs to go into a nursery.

the difference in curriculum and expectations now is huge. I think one big problem now is that many children are not ready for the demands of the curriculum ( at key stage one ) and struggle. Some are of course, but many are just turned 5 and many many schools are not play based at year 1. So just turned 5 year olds are expected to sit for periods of time with only access to play being playtimes. Play can be such a powerful part of children’s learning. I don’t understand why we rush them. Learning was far less formal and pressured in the infants in the eighties.

Aren't children supposed to get increasingly 'peer attached' as they grow? I'm sure it peaks in our teens, which is also when the reckless part of their brain takes over and their empathy shrinks for a while. But they need this to be able to fly the nest.

Surely our function as parents is to raise other humans so that they can function in society too. For my great grandparents, that meant leaving school as early as possible to earn a wage. No one system that caters for such huge numbers of people is going to suit everyone all the time. But then, society doesn't suit everyone all the time. We just adapt. I loved learning, but not all lessons all the time. I liked socialising in school, but I was still shit scared of a fair few kids and the school bus was a lawless ordeal for 5 long years. That doesn't mean I'd have been better off home educated. Largely because both my parents left school at 15. And there was no Internet. And left to my own devices, I'd have been a lazy cow.

Yes, they are Steiner schools.

No, they don't teach any of those things.

That's the point though. I didn't choose. Because children are not afforded choice.

Why do you think I would be interested in learning about those things in a place where my main concern was simply keeping my head above water? Avoiding abusive teachers. Bullies.
Exhausted from not getting enough sleep.

You do know tv exists right? And that once we've learned to read, there are these things called libraries where we can go to get books on any subject.

Wasted a decade of my life in classrooms.
It even stole away my love of drawing. Which actually breaks my heart for that little girl.

As for the other subjects - Horrible histories, David Attenborough documentaries etc...I remember those more than any class.

School spaces just aren't conducive for learning for everyone.

No disrespect to good teachers. But schools are still jails. Some kids don't realise it. But for those who do...

I like this system but I also think it's what happens in the years after starting that are crucial. I have seen so many kids struggle with the formality of year 1 for instance.

@5475878237NC loads of kids start to excel in year 1 they are ready for the challenge. But then a few kids in the class can't even write their name or read simple phonics because they're only 5 and learn at different paces. However in the class of 30 kids you can't give the best challenge and attention when there's a big difference. You always have to catch up the others

I don’t know if it’s down to the basic education system or not. My daughter was fine until encountering certain teachers in primary school. Under these teachers bullying went through the roof and bad behavior in the classroom was ignored, while my daughter seemed to be getting targeted for minor infractions. Strangely a lot of the crap teachers seemed to be related like cousins or married etc 🤷 It was all a bit weird

DS went to nursery/kindergarten from 6mnths, part time until 5 then full time from reception. Private for both, school has been described as the perfect environment for free range children. A very outdoors environment where wellies and waterproofs are part of the uniform. Children are allowed to climb trees explore both indoors and outdoors. They learn to risk assess and emerge confident in their abilities with a love of outdoor activities and sport. Not all are naturally athletic but they learn to work outside their comfort zones.
DS is quietly confident, makes friends easily but is also comfortable with his own company. A fierce defender of the underdog although doesn’t suffer fools.

He hated the lockdowns, couldn’t wait to return to school to be with his tribe and despite all the restrictions the imposed on their return, those years were “brilliant fun”. The second lockdown saw him sink into a deep dark place where he admitted to suicidal thoughts. I have never been so grateful for the reopening of schools in 2021. It took a while but he recovered with the support of friends and teachers.

School is not a wonderful place for some but for others it is their whole world. DH loved nearly every minute and never once refused to go, in fact he had an almost 100% attendance throughout.

I can’t imagine the person he would have been without school.

In contrast his cousin struggled , for lots of reasons, perhaps the most influential was an overprotective mother. He started refusing schooling yr8 and was home schooled. SIL micromanaged his social life and he enjoyed little independence. Eventually he had a major breakdown. Attempts to diagnose him with ASD have failed because he is not autistic, in fact in their early years I would have put money on DS being neuro divergent, and I think my SIL thought the same. But our different parenting styles meant that I didn’t wrap DS in cotton wool and found the best fit for him.

Turned out that DS was just bright and with the normal quirkyness that often goes hand in hand. He was a dinosaur expert , still is at 20 but doesn’t admit to it nowadays.

DS is now at uni living his best life or as he put it in freshers week “I’m thriving”.
His cousin lives in his room, has never been “out out” and has zero friends. It is quite possible he is SEN but a controlling, over protective mother has not helped. Fortunately because he was the golden child his younger sister was left to her own devices and is doing well. Cousin was expected to be the achiever and I think an academic future was expected, it is his sister who has excelled and will hopefully be allowed to go to uni away from home.

Unfortunately, you cannot always find the right fit for your child. But with extra curricular activities and input at home you can achieve a good balance. We are social creatures and will find our own tribe, trying to micromanage their lives can be counterproductive.

There is lots of evidence that learning to read English takes a lot longer than other languages - some European languages can be decoded in just a few terms so starting later isn’t a problem.

English takes longer so we need to give the average child longer to learn the basic phonic rules and then add in unpredictable whole-word recognition. (Even consistent-seeming word groups have exceptions eg mint, lint, hint, tint …pint!)

I personally think schools are generally fine at ks1, I think it’s ks2 where it all goes a bit batty.

My very average dc2 is at a state school where they are very formal in y1 and it was a rocky transition for the first half term after the free-flow, play-based YR. But now he is doing well - he can write joined up handwriting , perform basic maths functions, and reading is coming on in leaps and bounds. He is also learning to operate a laptop, type and use a mouse.

They do get plenty of time to play and re school day is not that long.

More to the point I can see he really enjoys learning. Good teaching makes it effective

That’s not exactly fair, as the whole country was in lockdown so those children couldn’t access anything educational out the classroom, any social groups or extra curricular learning. We homeschool but with lots of groups and outings, lockdown was a whole new issue- it was zoom central which isn’t good for anyone

But reception is based around free play and outside time. Our school is fantastic and my children are thriving there.