Help needed please!! In-year admission appeal

[ThisAzureFinch]

Hi all,
Please could I have some advice re making an in-year admission appeal.

Reason for the move is around friendship issues and impacts of these on my two children. Essentially, one of my children has close friends but they are very fraught relationships – one other child has a diagnosis that results in very significant anger issues such that (with no blame to the other child, parents or school), my child feels as though she is walking on egg shells to try and prevent anger outbursts and is in fear of physical aggression too (having previously experienced this from this other child). There are lots of tears and struggles with sleep etc.

My other child doesn’t have the same fraught relationships but has struggled to develop close friendships by year 4 at school (she has had something like two invites to playdates at someone else’s house in the entire time she has been at school). She is pretty sociable, having made good friends at extra curricular clubs but school friends don’t seem to be the right fit. She finds this very upsetting that she doesn’t have invites which has led to big emotional outbursts and lots of tears again.

So, my vague(!) understanding is that the focus of an appeal is around why we want them to go to the new school as opposed to why it is in their best interests to leave their existing school (although seems to me there may be some link between these!).Anyway, thinking of going with the sorts of arguments below. If anyone could please tell me if they are not relevant/will be easy to dismiss, please let me know:

• As both of my children are deaf, important to give them the best opportunities for friendships for mental health purposes (could cite BMJ study re increased suicide risk in the deaf community but I don’t know if that’s appropriate?)
• Related point is that if they were unplaced, they would be prioritised for a place via the Fair Access Protocol due to their disability i.e. Government policy recognises the vulnerability of children with disabilities in an educational context
• The proposed school offers a chance to make friends in our local area (to be fair our existing school is closer but I was using this as a comparison with other schools that might have spaces) – there are also lots of big school community building events which will again help develop friendships
• The proposed school is fairly unique locally in offering a great and varied selection of extra curricular clubs in the school – i.e. as compared to other schools with spaces (including the existing school) there are far more opportunities for developing friendships in this way
• The proposed school also has really good offerings for music and art (which the older and younger find a really good outlet) and so this would be a good confidence/mental health boost
• The proposed school has a very distinct community feel with lots of responsibility offered to the children eg litter picking, taking responsibility for younger children - all of which would help with settling in, friendship building and confidence
• [not sure whether to mention SEN provision at the proposed school which I have heard on the grapevine is good but I don’t really have any substantive evidence of this!]
• [not sure whether to mention there are a couple of kids in their year they would know from extra curricular clubs i.e. there would be a couple of friendly faces on arrival but I don’t know if this just looks like they are moving solely to be with friends – which isn’t the case as they aren’t especially close to the children at the proposed school]

Having done a bit of googling, I understand that I can also question the admissions authority/school around why they feel that going about their PAN would cause any problems with the efficient provision of education (or whatever the terminology is!). Any tips around this would also be much appreciated please! Thanks so much in advance if you’ve made it this far!!

I was trying to remember what exactly I had been told anecdotally but a quick check on the school's website has reminded me as they have very detailed SEND policies and other documentation. I won't fully detail here but while there is not much by way of specific deaf provision, there is a good deal of substantive SEND provision that I could point to over and above that offered by other local primaries in terms of specific SEND mental health TA support, Thrive practitioners, parent SEND forum etc etc.

Thanks v much again :)

There is a lot to deal with here. I might split this into several posts.

Starting with the points in your first post:

• As both of my children are deaf, important to give them the best opportunities for friendships for mental health purposes (could cite BMJ study re increased suicide risk in the deaf community but I don’t know if that’s appropriate?)

That is unlikely to carry any weight with the panel. A BMJ study, or anything else that talks generally about deaf people, will not carry much weight, if any. The panel will be far more interested in anything written by professionals specifically about your children.

• Related point is that if they were unplaced, they would be prioritised for a place via the Fair Access Protocol due to their disability i.e. Government policy recognises the vulnerability of children with disabilities in an educational context

This won't carry any weight. The fact they would be eligible to be placed via the FAP if they didn't have a place is irrelevant.

• The proposed school offers a chance to make friends in our local area (to be fair our existing school is closer but I was using this as a comparison with other schools that might have spaces) – there are also lots of big school community building events which will again help develop friendships

Friendship issues don't carry much weight, if any.

• The proposed school is fairly unique locally in offering a great and varied selection of extra curricular clubs in the school – i.e. as compared to other schools with spaces (including the existing school) there are far more opportunities for developing friendships in this way

This is better. Contrary to what another poster says, extra curricular clubs are relevant for appeal. However, rather than talk about them giving more opportunities for friendships, you need to focus on what they are about. Look for extra curricular activities this school offers that are missing from the current school and are particularly relevant to your children. If, for example, your children are interested in dance and this school offers a dance club, that would be worth bringing up.

• The proposed school also has really good offerings for music and art (which the older and younger find a really good outlet) and so this would be a good confidence/mental health boost

This could be relevant if this school has better provision for music and art than the current school.

• The proposed school has a very distinct community feel with lots of responsibility offered to the children eg litter picking, taking responsibility for younger children - all of which would help with settling in, friendship building and confidence

This might help your case if the current school doesn't have this, especially if you can get professional evidence that this kind of environment would be helpful for them.

• [not sure whether to mention SEN provision at the proposed school which I have heard on the grapevine is good but I don’t really have any substantive evidence of this!]

In theory, any school can cope with SEN. However, if you can identify specific provision that this school has that your children need to access, that would be helpful to your case.

• [not sure whether to mention there are a couple of kids in their year they would know from extra curricular clubs i.e. there would be a couple of friendly faces on arrival but I don’t know if this just looks like they are moving solely to be with friends – which isn’t the case as they aren’t especially close to the children at the proposed school]

I wouldn't bother with this. It doesn't help your case.

Having done a bit of googling, I understand that I can also question the admissions authority/school around why they feel that going about their PAN would cause any problems with the efficient provision of education (or whatever the terminology is!). Any tips around this would also be much appreciated please!

You will get the school's case to refuse admission before the hearing. If you tell us what it says, you will get advice on how best to approach this. At this stage, about the only useful thing you can do is ask the school for its net capacity. If it turns out that the school is below capacity even though it is full in the years your children need, that will help.

I find the whole thing confusing to be honest since, as a matter of common sense, if there was something like significant bullying in your existing school, I would expect that to be a strong case to enable you to move but from what I have read, it seems as though the case you need to make is around the basis for your preference for the proposed school.

You are appealing for the school you want, not against the school you've got. Bullying is one of the few exceptions to that. If a parent can show that their child is being bullied and their school is not taking effective action to stop it, that is usually a strong case.

I suppose my question is at what stage do friendship issues become a factor that would weigh materially in the balance - we have had bedwetting as a direct consequence of the stresses at school with friends - so it is something that has been significant (this was my older child). I am unsure also as to what weight is given to the fact that they are both deaf - they do not have (and I understand would be unlikely to get) an ECHP, but I was hoping that the fact of their disability would count for something bearing in mind that they would be automatically classed as 'vulnerable' for this reason under the Fair Access Protocol.

Friendship issues generally only become a significant issue if there is evidence from medical professionals saying that, in their opinion, the child needs to be at the same school as their friends. Absent that, the panel is unlikely to give friendship issues any weight.

In theory, all schools should be able to provide for deaf children, so being deaf will not carry any weight unless you can show that the school you want has specific provision for deaf children that is missing from the current school.

• Since the panel operates in a judicial role, I just wondered if anyone knows whether statutory declarations are admissible in evidence. It would probably just be from us as their parents to attest to their social and emotional difficulties (which I appreciate from what people say is unlikely to hold much weight anyway) but I would just like the veracity of their struggles to not be in doubt.

The panel are not lawyers and an appeal is not a legal process. There is no guarantee they will even know what a statutory declaration is. They are unlikely to give it any more weight than a simple statement from you.

• Does anyone know whether when the panel gives the outcome of the first stage (contrary to the efficient education to admit more pupils), is the panel required to state a level of prejudice to the school e.g. they have already admitted 3 children above PAN, there would be 'significant' prejudice to the school; or this would be the first child admitted above PAN, there would be a 'modest degree' of prejudice?

No, the panel is not required to state a level of prejudice to the school. Indeed, they may not give the outcome of the first stage separately. For an in-year admission appeal, the panel generally don't make any decisions until both sides have presented their cases, so you don't get a separate decision for the first stage.

• As I will be making separate appeals across two year groups, will there be any scope for linking these (so that I am not literally repeating myself on some points) or will they be kept entirely separate?

This is up to the admission authority. They may organise things so that both appeals are heard at the same time by the same panel. Even if that happens, the panel will consider each case separately.

• Related to the above, is the outcome of one appeal for one of my children at all relevant to the outcome of the other (both in relation to the support they provide for each other as the only deaf children in the school and also in terms of whether they would expect me to do two separate school runs if one appeal succeeded and the other failed – I’m guessing they don’t care?!)

No. Even if the cases are heard together, the panel will consider them as two separate cases. Winning one will not increase your chances of winning the other. And, whilst the panel may understand the difficulty of getting two children to different schools, that is not something they can take into account.

@prh47bridge Thank you so much for all of your advice above (and your time in giving this). It is invaluable to have a sense of which arguments it is worth trying to develop (and which are essentially pointless!). It's also super helpful to have a better idea on the procedure as it is not something I am familiar with at all and it all feels pretty stressful.

Thanks so much again - I may be in touch once I hear some more from the admissions authority/school if thats ok. Until then, I'll try and leave you all alone!!
: )

Bit of a mumsnet newbie so not sure if it’s the best bet to post on my original thread to seek some further help so am trying it but may repost as a new thread if someone tells me that’s the more usual thing to do!

We've now had the response to our in-year admission applications and one child has gotten in and the other hasn’t.

The letter says that the place for the accepted child has to be taken up in 28 school days (although there is an option to contact the admissions authority if this isn’t possible). I just wondered please:

a) Whether they admissions authority is likely to allow me to extend the 28 day period pending the outcome of the sibling appeal (presumably not?);
b) If I wanted to get the appeal in ASAP to optimise the chance of it being decided before I need to take up the offered place, can I introduce new evidence in the hearing (e.g. from the teacher of the deaf) or is all evidence supposed to be contained in written submissions?

c) Whether it would be of any benefit to me in the appeal itself to reference the fact that their sibling will be attending the school (i.e. emotional issues re separating them – which would be significant although I suspect irrelevant!) – obviously this would only be an argument I could attempt if I do decide to send one child even if the other doesn’t win the appeal

d) The admissions authority sent me info on the net capacity and they are quite significantly undersubscribed in reception (21 children in one class, 22 in the other). One year (the year above my eldest child) has a class of 31. Just wondered how I can best use these points to make my case re there not being prejudice to the school in admitting one further pupil?

Any advice greatly appreciated 😊

Unlikely they would extend , although if there is no waiting list or other applications before the offer expires it probably won't be forfeited. Given the Christmas break an appeal may well not take place within your timeframe. You could refer to further evidence and submit later, however a sibling link only comes into effect once they are on roll. Which year are you appealing for? Is that over capacity?

Depending on exact holiday, 28 school days takes you to late Jan/early feb?

It is absolutely fine to add this to the thread. Indeed, best to do so as it keeps everything in one place.

a) No-one can answer that. It is entirely up to the admission authority.

b) You cannot introduce new documentary evidence in the hearing. If you try to do so, you may find that the hearing gets adjourned to a later date.

c) I doubt that will help. Even if you had evidence from a medical professional or similar saying that your children need to attend the same school, it will raise the obvious question as to why you chose to send a child to this school instead of finding one that had places for both.

d) The extent to which this is useful depends on the case they make for your appeal. If they talk about overcrowding in the corridors, difficulties at lunchtime, etc., you can point out that they are under capacity overall so should be able to cope. If they simply talk about the difficulties of having more than 30 children in a class, the fact they are under capacity overall is less useful.

Ah thanks very much - I have enquired as to whether they might be able to extend but am not overly hopeful! Am appealing for Year 4 which is at capacity rather than over. I stayed up (very!) late last night to finalise my appeal submission so I've done all I can to try and get the appeal heard within the 28 day acceptance period even though it's probably unlikely to be heard in time in view of Christmas as you say

Oh yes 28 school days is actually longer than I realised- maybe a chance for an appeal before the acceptance date if the appeal is heard fairly swiftly!

Thanks so much for all of this advice. It's super helpful to have a sense of what is relevant and likely counter arguments.

I may be in touch again once I have the admissions authority's representations if that's ok. Thanks very much again for all of your help to date which is greatly appreciated.

Back again! I have now received the representations from the school on the appeal and I’d be super grateful for some advice please as to how I am best to prepare for the appeal hearing. (Sorry its so long).

The representations are pretty short (1/2 side of A4) and fairly generic making reference to: teacher’s already high workload and consequent implications for planning, report writing, marking, parents evenings etc; results in sharing equipment and cramped classrooms; more children, less time for each child for teaching, nurture; pupil numbers over 30 will equate to less progress; additional pressures spread teachers and TA time and impact learning and progress.

Questions please as follows:

1. Is it typical for the school statement to be so short/not including much specific evidence/detail? I think I will struggle to think on my feet on the day. To this end, is there anything in the above points from the school that I could question at stage 1 (I’d rather not ideally copy and paste the statement verbatim as it probably is a bit identifying unless I delete various bits)

2. Where could I find info on physical classroom sizes that are deemed acceptable? Seems as though there is a mix of classroom sizes at the school.

3. I assume that it’s unusual for the school to send a representative? If there is no representative from the school, will the admissions officer have detailed knowledge of the school to know, for example, if there has been any detriment caused by going over PAN in the past?

4. Re the stage 1 appeal, am I best to minimise how much I question the Admissions Authority on the basis that the panel is best placed to do this?

5. Re stage 1 again, should I limit myself to purely questioning the Admissions Authority’s case or can I. for example, make a comment (suppose I could phrase it as a question) along the lines of the ‘Could the AA please explain how there would be detriment over and above the fact that PAN would be exceeded?’. I guess this would only be a point that I could make if no evidence is forthcoming over and above the written submissions (which I guess is unlikely)

6. Re the stage 2 part of the appeal, does it look bad if I ask the panel to rely on my written evidence and that I am happy to answer questions or am I better to give a brief summary?

7. Do parents typically do a few words summing up or is there no real benefit unless something new has come out in questioning from the panel that I might want to emphasise?

Thanks so much in advance - advice on here has been completely invaluable

@ThisAzureFinch that's a fairly typical school case in my experience. It's perfectly legitimate to protect the education of current children by not going over their planned admissions number - if you were a current parent you would expect them to do that. The panel will question the school's case appropriately and decide whether your case is stronger. You can question the school case too, of course, but your main priority should be to make your own case as strong as possible.

1. I have never seen a school statement that short. They shouldn't add further arguments in the hearing. You can use the fact that another year has 31 pupils to suggest that they can cope with an additional pupil in this year.
2. For primary schools, the standard size for 30 pupils is 62m2 for Reception, Y1 and Y2, 55m2 for other years. Many older schools don't meet this standard, so don't worry too much about it if this school doesn't or if admitting your child will result in more than 30 pupils in a 55m2 room. However, if the room is larger than 55m2 you can argue that it is big enough for an additional pupil.
3. If the LA is the admission authority and is presenting the case, there usually wouldn't be anyone from the school in the hearing. However, if the school is its own admission authority (i.e. it is an academy, free school or VA school), they will usually present their own case without anyone from the LA present. Whoever is presenting should know enough to answer any questions you or the panel put to them.
4. Up to you. If you think you have questions that will help your case, ask them. Don't worry about whether that means you ask more than the panel. Remember that the panel will mainly ask questions to help them understand, whereas you should be asking questions to try and highlight any weaknesses in the school's case.
5. The school's statement you have outlined already answers how there will be detriment - additional pressures on teachers, etc. Stick to questions. Any comment you want to make can be phrased as a question or left to your own case.
6. That's fine. When I am presenting for a parent, I usually flesh out the written case, but it is absolutely fine to say that your written case covers everything you want to say.
7. After both sides have presented their cases and answered questions, the admission authority will sum up and then you will be asked to do so. You should give a short summary, highlighting the strong points of your case and any weaknesses that have emerged in the case to refuse admission.

Thanks very much - I will take another look at my case for the stage 2 part so I will be prepared to answer questions at least (I think I would ideally rather not restate/summarise my position as I will almost certainly cry). Thanks again

Thanks so much for your detailed response and incredibly helpful advice. It really is invaluable and as someone who is not great at thinking on their feet (especially in emotional situations), it's so helpful to have this sort of information in advance so I can think through my questions and submissions before the hearing. Thanks very much again. Really appreciated