My child is being punished for something that he can not help

[Meganrose2000]

Hi everyone,
so I’m looking for advice really my child is being punished he is 5 years old and punishment is 15 minutes of his dinner time to be kept in his class, he is currently waiting to be assessed by CAMHS for ADHD/ADD I’ve raised my concerns in 6 week holidays about his behaviour and the way he is at home. This was picked up from nursery 2 years ago as he couldn’t keep eye contact for long period & often would fidget on the carpet and preferred 1-1, I have raised this issue with the school and have told them about this and they said they would look into it by putting him on SENCO and give him a school councillor until he was being seen by CAMHS yet nobody has actually made these steps and this was mentioned by the deputy head around 1-2 months ago now. They are giving him a detention for not listening to adults when being told to not do something or distracting himself and others in the classroom, don’t get me wrong I agree with discipline but this is a constant thing and nothing is being resolved by doing this. I don’t know what else to do or where to go to I am thinking about changing his schools.

I'd be more concerned generally that the school is OK with five year olds being punished by missing 15 minutes of their lunch break. To my mind, that's not on, unless it's due to dangerous/hurtful behaviour during lunch break. Most schools I've worked at would say the same. The best schools would only take away lunch break for very significant behaviours.

Ask for a meeting about this. Find out what the "crime" was and what the "punishment" was. How often is it happening? Is it happening more for your son than most pupils?

In terms of SEN, "put him on SENCO" doesn't make sense as a SENCO is a person, so you should ask for clarification about what they are doing to support his SEN needs, if indeed they agree he may have them.

Do you mean put him on SEN register? Have you had a meeting with SENDCo. If on SEN register he should have an individual learning plan which you should have some involvement with

I was going to say the same about 'put him on SENCO'. The SENCO' is a teacher who is a special educational needs coordinator so this doesn't quite make sense but I assume you mean the SEND register. If so, have you seen any paperwork with specific targets for your child?
A controversial comment but some 5 year old boys just can't sit still and listen for long, doesn't mean they have any additional needs it's just their personality or maturity so please don't rely on this. Keep an open mind.

He's a bit young for punishment by detentions surely? He probably doesn't even understand why!

You could also go on their website and look at the behaviour policy and what you have agreed to by joining the school.

He is behind on all of his work compared to the rest of the children in his class, I haven’t seen no paperwork at all and have requested for a report around 2 weeks ago. My mistake as I wrote this at 4AM I did mean SEN but apparently there’s a waiting list for this, they keep telling me his behaviour is because he is a ‘summer baby’ and this was coming from the deputy head.

They give me a letter to discuss why he has been given them apart from one time which i should’ve asked them about, one he was throwing ‘rocks’ on the yard and wouldn’t stop when being asked to which fair enough because he could’ve injured a child by doing that but why have ‘rocks’ were children are? And the most recent one is because he is distracting himself and other children in class and still not stopping when being spoken to by various adults and as far as I’m aware yes my child is getting it a lot compared to the rest of the children.
I did mean SEN but apparently there is a waiting list and the deputy head is saying it’s down to him being a summer baby which doesn’t make sense to me hence why I went to his GP myself because he is like this at home and as well out of school activities, he doesn’t follow instructions and no matter how many times I tell him off or ground him he still continues to do it.

I knew this would be adhd before I opened the post. My son is a couple of years older than yours, has a diagnosis, has regular interventions, is on the sen register, has several reports. Still regularly gets told off or punished for behaviour he can’t help so you unfortunately have a long road to go.

I would focus on pushing for inclusion on the sen register; a referral for diagnosis and an educational psychologist report.

With the school I would point out that if it turns out that it’s just that he’s summer born you will cancel the referral but because waiting lists are long you want to be on it. I’d also strongly point out that movement helps kids with these behaviours so cancelling break time is hugely counter productive!

We have ADHD in my family (myself and two kids) but we have the inattentive kind so more distract easily rather than fidgety.
It angers me that the UK has this problem - that schools punish ADHD kids for what is effectively their disability. I have said to my daughter's school they don't (and rightly so) punish dyslexic children for not getting all their spellings right - why are their punishing ADHD kids for displaying the traits of their disability.
My biggest concern for these kids is they grow up with thinking they are not smart and are naughty kids and there you have an adult with these huge mental health issues.
Please continue to kick up about this - speak to the board - ask for one of those fidget cushion mat things and fidget toys - bug them until you get what your son needs.

Email the head teacher with your concerns. And look at other schools and if you visit them ask what approach they would take with your son. Some schools/teachers are too heavy-handed with discipline.

there is a massive waiting list for assessment.

However, any SENCo worth their salt would be treating a child that has been referred for assessment as needing help, and a learning plan set up.

IF nothing is being done, they're just making excuses.

There isn’t a waiting list for the SENDCo to have a chat with you and discuss their plan. There is a waiting list for assessment

Any child being punished due to behaviour out of their control due to a disability is shocking. Even if OP's child hasn't been officially diagnosed, the school should have enough experience to make an educated guess at the root cause of the behaviour. A 15 minute detention for a 5 year old is just horrible.

School sounds very lacking. This time is crucial for your child both academically and socially/emotionally. You really need to push for diagnosis.

Actually, a lot is being resolved by sanctioning your child in this way!
You said yourself he does not stop doing things he is asked to.
How is the whole class supposed to function if he is allowed to do exactly as he likes and 29 children have to look on knowing they'd get told off for the same thing? And how do you know he is learning nothing from it? Is it because he gets upset? If so, well literally every child gets upset to receive a school sanction.

And if he were not sanctioned according to the school's behavour policy could you not assume he then has literally zero chance to learn good behaviour?

Your post is all about exempting your child from standard school procedure, as if the school know nothing about managing behaviour. You ought to be focusing on what it is he refuses to stop doing and parenting him into more productive social responses. Just because he has ADHD does not mean he does not know the difference between good and poor behaviour.

From a school's perspective if your child cannot respond to a request to stop doing something then it can range from irritating to dangerous, and what they need from you is recognition that he behaves in this way and a pledge to work with them, rather than complaining about school procedure.
Sorry to sound harsh, but literally none of that comes across in your post. The solution does not hang on a CAMHS referral (which in some cases can take years), it hangs on working with the school. They completely get that you are concerned, but you are not helping anyone to simply complain about behaviour policies.

Dunno, just....stop complaining about schools, they are not there to raise your child.

Consider a private assessment vs waiting for the school/LA assessment.
There’s medication available to help with ADHD.

This! Whether he has ADHD or not he needs to learn to function in a way at school that is conducive to other children learning and does not jeopardise anyone’s safety (throwing rocks).

It sounds like the school are being dismissive of her potential SEN. If you believe that his behaviour is something more than being a summer born boy then absolutely advocate for him being assessed and for the school to look at ways they can help him concentrate e.g wobble cushion, fidget toys, but you also need to work with with them on strategies to get him to behave in the manner that is expected of other children.

Yes it will be harder for him, but he cannot go through school with no expectation that he behaves appropriately. Not only will that be distracting for others’ learning but it will send a wider message that misbehaving does not have consequences.

Even with a diagnosis, negative behaviour still has to come with consequences in mainstream school. If your ds is not listening or doing what he needs to do in lesson time, then the natural consequence of that is doing the work later.

Keep pushing for all the support you believe your son needs, but children with SEN still need to do their work and learn to behave.

Honestly I would look at different schools.

Any education facility that doesn't recognise a deregulated child, and thinks removing down time is appropriate for 5 year olds, is so behind in their pedagogical knowledge it isn't funny.

As I said I don’t disagree with disciplining a child’s bad behaviour but as I said it’s not really getting anywhere and so that’s why I have asked what will their next steps will be. I know how to raise my child and discipline him but as I said he still can not get the consequences of his actions into his head about it no matter how many times a day I tell him, I have gave him things to concentrate such as fidget toys but the teachers take them off him and say it’s not necessary. He was chewing his jumpers and shirts so I bought him chew necklaces from Amazon yet they get taken off him to, no matter what you do the school always has an excuse. In fact most people have taken their children out of this school as it was amazing 2 years ago but has seemed to gone downhill recently and many parents have said they only look into things properly towards year 6 which I am tired of people pushing things to be done so it is left to the next schools to deal with. But I will not have you or anyone else on this post say it’s down to my parenting skills when I am trying and doing my best for my child but it gets nowhere, clearly you don’t have a child with needs/disabilities it honestly can’t be helped and alls I want for him is to get the help for his future ahead of him!! This is why children fail and end up with mental health issues as they get older because they can’t get the help they needed when they was younger due to parents refusing that their child has a disability so I will be doing everything I can for him and I will be his voice!!! As for summer baby is a pathetic excuse, even speaking to professionals they have pulled faces towards that because it sounds so silly.

One thing I've learned from friends who have kids with SEN is you have to make yourself a squeaky wheel. Ask to speak to the teacher, ask to speak to the SEN coordinator, tell them you can see he's having difficulty with xyz behaviours, you're concerned he's missing so much of his break time for things that may be outside his control, and it doesn't seem to be helping - you'd like to discuss possible alternative
approaches. What would they be trying if there was a diagnosis? Could you try that?

It doesn't have to mean just ignoring behaviour but more trying to find ways to head it off in advance. I'm thinking for example things like having a fidget toy might help, or having advanced warning of changes of activity (the latter helps many children that age anyway), or sitting nearer the front or back; knowing the trigger points and finding ways around. If there's catching up to be done due to his not being able to concentrate, could they send it home rather than keep him in at break so that his behaviour isn't worsened by not having that down time?

Wow, just seen your last. That definitely needs tackling with the school, if they're actually taking potential helping things away from him. That's awful. If you've already talked to the teacher and they keep removing things like fidget toys then giving him detention for fidgeting, it may be time to make it a more formal complaint.

In most schools you have to have things like fidget toys / chew necklaces / wobble cushions etc on the child’s sen plan before you send them in, so your first step for that is to speak to the senco.

It is incredibly common for kids with adhd to get told off for fidgeting with fidget toys / chewing chew necklaces etc. Drives me mad!

Jesus bloody wept. These schools will feed you any bullshit and I wish so much I could convince mums to realise how much they will be lied to, fobbed off and gaslit before they have to experience it to see.

This is quite typical for us all with SEN kids.

So, you need to become a little more assertive now. You get gaslit so much you get a bit scared of saying anything. But your instincts are right. Your child absolutely is ND and I know it because you know it. And you know better than anyone.

You need to email the head, copy in SENCO and class teacher. You say with absolute certainty, we believe strongly that Johnny ( child) is ND. We believe both ADHD/ASD. Don't explain why. Just express your certainty. You then request that he be placed on the SEN register. You request that in being on the SEN register, all staff are informed that he is suspected ND and therefore certain accomodations needed.

A key accomodation you would like to request is for movement breaks. Another accomodation is extra support via the TA. Another accomodation would be support in the form of sensory gadgets ( you are happy to provide). It would be best to have a meeting in person to discuss the specifics of these accomodations with the SENCO. Can they let you know when they're available. You'd then like to see these agreed accommodations in a plan. Even a scrappy piece of paper will do OP. These things must be in writing. Conversations over the phone etc don't usually cover it.

If there's any way you could afford a private assessment? I know it's impossible for many. You don't actually need the diagnosis for them to go on the SEN register but they may lie to you about that. Our primary SENCO lied about alot of things like this before I had to research and learn.

Movement breaks, check ins and fidget gadgets did help my son in primary. He was given separate spaces for tests and SATS. The school fobbed me off so badly at first that my request for NHS assessment was declined. We paid for a private one in the end. It's so wrong I know. Child has 3 ND conditions and still they gaslit me. This tells you all you need know ref what you have to do.

The detention thing is not great really but your child is not on an equal playing field so this needs pointing out. They just want you to go away. It's a lot of hassle for school with minimal resources and understanding ref SEN needs.

Ask them how they think stopping him running around for 15 minutes is going to help him keep still and focussed?

It's literally the opposite of comments sense!