Do you feel you are *entitled* to the "best" school for your children?

[UnquietDad]

If so, why?

and just a few other questions/points.

Define "best"

and

Does this apply also to people up the road?

and

Does this apply also to people in different social classes?

i.e if you're entitled to the "best" school why isn't everyone else?

Is there a middle-class sense of "entitlement" to the "best schools" in this country?
Is the problem that we have such a variation in standards of schools across a supposedly comprehensive system?
Is it people playing the system, moving out of catchment, "getting faith" etc, and making themselves part of the problem and not part of the solution?
Or is the issue simply one of being too obsessed by the schools that do well in the league tables and/or have a nice uniform?

(It's a quiet Saturday... Walks away whistling, hands in pockets... Gas Mark 6, set to simmer. I'll be back...)

I am entitled to pick work that pays well and work very hard indeed so that I can then pay for the best schools for my children. In a welfare state those of us who pay pretty high taxes are also entitled to know there is some back stop (even if fairly low grade) state entitlement there if we need it too.

I don't think most schools were fine 20 or 30 years ago at all. Only 15% of children went to university and most didn't do A levels for a start. In some senses state schools are better now than they were

I am now considered to be ?middle class? but my roots are very much working class. I somehow managed to pass my eleven plus and went to a grammar school (the only child at the time from my whole council estate). My parents appealed against me having this place because they could not afford the uniform and never attended a parents evening (probably, sadly, because they felt inferior). I was the only child out of four children in the family to get to a grammar school. My mother had the expectation that girls should be in the home and not have a career so I left school. Going to uni just seemed a bridge too far as no one in our extended family had ever done so. And it wasn?t until I was In my 30?s that I was able to return to study and completed a degree which gave me a health professionals qualification ? I now work in the NHS.

I wonder firstly, how life would have turned out if I had not atteded the grammar school ? my siblings and friends who lived on the council estate where I lived, went to local poor secondary schools ? they are still in very low paid jobs . Grammar education did me a favour but a dis-service to childhood friends and siblings. For this reason, I would like to see an end to grammar schools.

Secondly, I wonder how would life be for my siblings if my parents had understood the value of education, encouraged, wanted and fought for the ?best? for their children?

Having the opportunity of a good education made available to me raised my expectations, gave me an understanding of ?how the other half lived?and 'ticked' and undoubtedly had a hand in my eventually doing a degree and becoming ?middle class? with nice house etc and being better able to advocate for my own children to give them opportunities in life. How unfair is that?

Life is not fair but those who are amongst the ?haves? need to be helping to create a level playing field for the ?have nots?. If we see education for our dc?s as an ?entitlement? it is unlikely that we will be thinking in a social justice frame of mind and even less likely that we will care about the less privileged. And when I say ?level playing field?, that does not mean that all should start from the same point ? some need extra support just to give them access to the same opportunities as others. and for me personally, that means instilling a sense of gratitude rather than 'we deserved this' in our children when they do get positive life opportunities. (I do appreciate of course that there are many caring 'middle class' people on mumsnet so I hope this doesn't sound preachy - I don't usually post )

I believe that everyone is entitled to the best

I also believe that schools should offer a uniform educational standard - be it a leafy suburban faith school or an inner city sink

So I think what I believe in is abolishing all faith schools, bussing to avoid wealth-apartheid. and incidentally abolishing all private schools too

Since this will never happen I flog myself hard to pay school fees

Same here QC. The choice I have made for my kids is not in line with my principles and is not one I ever expected to make. I find it easier to 'justify' my choice to myself as much as anyone with the fact that state education is so full of inequalities itself. Actually it came down to the fact that it felt less hypocritical for me to be opt out all together and go private and pay for it rather than move house (I live in a very deprived area with very underperforming schools in terms of exam results at least) or adopt a faith. Also find it easier because as a teacher I actually have first hand experience of many state schools including some of those locally. So I'm not making the decision based on snobbery or aspiration. Nothing to do with a sense of 'entitlement' really.

I think I am entitled to a school that will give my children a chance, with a some hard work from them, to fulfill their abilities. I think most schools should be able to do this, given a motivated staff and a fair mix of pupils.

I think private schools just create a self perpetuating cycle where children don't go to the local school because everybody who goes there has a 'problem' background and so the staff don't get to teach a broad range of abilities so it fails and the staff are demotivated, so more parents who can send their children to private schools.

In the town where I grew up, parents pay a huge, huge premium on their houses to get into the local primary school, but then send their children to private schools, and children are bused in from poorer areas to fill places at their local state school which is not well regarded. I can't help thinking that if one year everybody just agreed en mass to go to the state school it would be turned around (although I agree that when its your own child, its difficult not to just do what you can for them, and if that involves spending money, that is what people do).

If you are going to have an argument about this, I would throw in this question - is it fair to say that somebody can't use their resources to give their children a private education, but they can use their resources (time, education) to homeschool? I would like to get rid of all private schools, but I don't really have an answer to this question.

no, not entitled to the best, that's harrow and eton.

round here we pretty much send our children to the local comp, unless you're religious then you go to the religious comp .

alot of people moan about the local school, but it's been great for my family so far

Agree totally with Rhubarb

I think my local comp is entitled to my gorgeous daughter

Why is Harrow the best?
Think I'd hate it personally

Oh btw UQD - the OP is a bit chippy IMO - those of us flogging ourselves to pay school fees don't feel an entitlement to the best - it's just that what is on offer doesn't seem adequate

not just not adequate for me and the 400 brats but not adequate for anyone

but I can't do anything about that - I'm not in charge of education policy or have any influence on how taxes are spent

so I just cultivate my own garden

s'all I can do

we can all influence education policy and how taxes are spent in a democracy though
if we work together even more so
we can also support schools at a local level
the choices we make about which school we send our child/ren to, and the support we give that school, is a very significant influence

Harrow and Eton no good to me southeastastra, I don't have any sons

if you go to harrow you become prime minister, isn't that how it works?

Quattro, you don't really believe in abolishing private schools, otherwise you wouldn't use them.

It sounds a bit like, poor me, I have to send my children to a private school.

cobblers Harpsi

naive dewy eyed cobblers

Pf course its possible to believe that something should not exist but still use it

in the abstract I believe that air travel should be cut down radically but I cannot tell you how many airmiles I clock up in a year

it is cobblers that we don't have any influence on education
I think you have pretty much convinced yourself that you have no influence and therefore no responsibility
which I hope makes you feel better aslong as you are able to believe such self-serving bollocks.

steady on girls!!

Look be realistic Harpsi - look at where we are in terms of an education system - it's not good and no one individual can make a difference to it

It's all very well being pi and saying we could if we all pulled together - which may or may not be true - but the fact remains that it won't happen

My response is pragmatic - I deal with the facts as they are - and just take responsibility for my own children

You can be on the committee at your local school, you can campaign for change, there is a website that campaigns for equal education to all. You might think this is an unrealistic dream, but then so did the blacks when they campaigned for their equal rights. Nothing is impossible.

The checkout girl at your local supermarket works damn hard, sometimes shifts of up to 10 hours, with timed breaks (is there anything more humiliating than timed toilet breaks?), she and her kind are the fabric that hold this economy together, yet they are treated like second class citizens, having to rely on the state for everything. And they pay taxes too. It's their work that raises the profits of these supermarkets, which in turn makes rich the shareholders and directors, who then use that money to send their children to private schools so that their offspring can join the capitalist band. Whereas the offspring of the supermarket worker has to take their chances in the state schools and hope for the best.

just send your kids to the local comp. if they're clever and nice - they'll be benefit to the school.

Very true southeastra, the children make the school. If a school only has estate kids then it turns into an estate school, whereas you put some other kids in there and you upset the apple cart. Which can be a good thing. There was a BBC experience documentary type thing which did this was there not?

Private schools encourage segregation. Them versus Us. That's never good. They're kids ffs, kids aren't biased, that's something that is learnt. Kids don't judge naturally, they accept people for who they are. I've always been very moved to see how some kids accept and embrace children with special needs or with severe deformities. Shame on the adult who takes that acceptance away from them.

As PaintingR says you can move class. We all went to private schools. We all had high expectations and met them as I am sure my own 5 children will do. But we're not born the same either. Some are born cleverer than others and the segregation by IQ route that was state grammar school gave a chance to people like Painting to see another type of life/possibilities which I'm not sure the comprehensive that probably serves her home council estate does not. It was the fact of being plucked out from amongst the mass of future poorly paid workers and taken out of that to a school where most children would do well or go to university which was a good route the clever but poor used to have and is now largely removed. Now if the comps were all as good as the old state grammars there would not be a problem. If 100% of teh children from the council estate have the chance to get to good universities and see that as the norm rather than just those who were in the 10% who went to grammar school that's good.

It certainly serves the nation well if those children who are very bright get as much chance to get top jobs if they are from poor homes as those who come from privileged backgrounds.

Someone asked what is a good education. That depends on the child. If I had a musical genois for a child I'd want it at a music school. If it were a child with Down's I would want it at the best school in the country with provision of that. If it were Tim nice but Dim type I'd want it at a good private school with very small classes good with that sort of child, chance to learn a range of skills including practical skills and make good contacts for his future life. If it were a fairly bright child as I think mine are then the choice for us was let's pick a day school near us (I hate boarding schools) which gets A level results in the top 10/20 schools, is reasonably large so lots of nice fields, hobbies, music and sport to be brilliant and in our case we wanted single sex schools too.

For other people it is good if it is Muslim and girls grow up to be good fundamentalists who marry at 15 or 16 abroad. I was just watching the youtube videos, heart rending, of those poor mothers whose children have been taken from them in Texas www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVGK2Aa4uEk They will have their own views on what is a "good" education.