Do you feel you are *entitled* to the "best" school for your children?

[UnquietDad]

If so, why?

and just a few other questions/points.

Define "best"

and

Does this apply also to people up the road?

and

Does this apply also to people in different social classes?

i.e if you're entitled to the "best" school why isn't everyone else?

Is there a middle-class sense of "entitlement" to the "best schools" in this country?
Is the problem that we have such a variation in standards of schools across a supposedly comprehensive system?
Is it people playing the system, moving out of catchment, "getting faith" etc, and making themselves part of the problem and not part of the solution?
Or is the issue simply one of being too obsessed by the schools that do well in the league tables and/or have a nice uniform?

(It's a quiet Saturday... Walks away whistling, hands in pockets... Gas Mark 6, set to simmer. I'll be back...)

Why does she have to be a checkout girl?

Because it is an example of a worker who provides a valuable service but gets paid very little. She could equally have been a truck driver, or factory worker, or cleaner, or hairdresser. Any would have served their purpose for my argument.

Hmm, Rhubarb - but it's OK when people get personal with my situation. What a double standard.

Interesting point riven.

I also think that no matter what school your children go to, if you take an interest as parents, if you encourage and praise, then your children will do as well as their abilities allow.

But I agree that it is rather hard to take an interest when you've just got back from a hard shift work and are tired and hungry. Makes you wonder how much valuable time children get with their parents these days?

But why are they in an unskilled job at all, Rhubarb?

No ST, it's not ok when people get personal. You have chosen to relate how you rose up the class ladder to be able to afford a private education for your children. Your choice to divulge that information and therefore you must allow others to comment upon that. But when a person has not invited personal comments, it is rather rude to make them.

Unskilled job? Checkout girl? Truck driver? I couldn't drive a truck, could you? And I believe I already stated earlier down that these unskilled workers are the backbone of our economy. We need them to keep this country going, the fat cats need them to make their profits, the banks need them to loan money. Without them our economy, as it is, would collapse.

So, out of sympathy for the status of checkout girls, we should all have the same opportunities in education?

Not at all! If we all had the same opportunities then we might run out of unskilled workers as those children would no doubt want to go on to University and well paid jobs - the economy would collapse! Heavens no, we need state schools to keep unskilled workers where they belong and private schools for the rich kids who will no doubt one day play a part in helping capitalism to survive.

Equality! Huh no - dirty word!

Shame ST, I was hoping for a more interesting debate. Never mind. The roast lamb is ready so I really do have to feed Tarquin and Quentin now.

Have some vinegar with your chips, Rhubarb

Don't you mean a balsamic dressing?

I felt entitled to TRY and get my child a place in what I considered the best in my town. Is that middle-class entitlement??

She didn't get in mind you! She got into the second best school in the town, and I do feel that she deserved that place as much as the next child to be honest. It was a church school, and my parents have been involved with the church for 40 yrs. They have made sandwiches, fundraised, polished brass, arranged flowers. As their grandchild, not as my child, I felt confident she deserved a place.

I think most parents think that their children deserve the best school. But some parents would be afraid that their children wouldn't fit in at the best school. They might worry their child would be bullied about their accent, or what their parents do for a living, or that the other parents would make them feel small. That's why they don't even APPLY. They make their choices for different reasons.

There are two really sh1t schools near me. The only thing wrong with the school is that it is near a massive council housing estate. That shouldn't matter. The children are SO young. But it sets a low precedent or something. The children from that school go on to the known-to-be-hopeless secondary schools. THEIR parents haven't the confidence to swear blind their mother was a catholic to get into a convent while at the same time going to church and giving the rector a bottle of wine at Christmas. These are the tricks of the confident parent.

Riven, my parents did that! Scrimped and saved so that they could send us to private school. Worked out well for my brother, but I was in the bottom class and I was left to veg/study/evolve - nobody noticed or cared.

I remember going on holidays around Europe with my parents when we were 11 and 13. We had to share a coke between us. Miserable and pointless. My Dad thinks that we might remember the loire valley but all we remember is blowing up our airbeds and looking forward to that half a coke.

Rhubarb - don't worry about it. I understand completely your point. Sadly some people really don't believe in equality of opportunity - usually because they know damn well that if there was real equality then their kids wouldnt cut the mustard!!

I am of the opinion that a good proportion of the schools panic, getting to the 'best', is not about the actual education on offer, but about getting into a school where a greater proportion - preferably all - are 'people like us'.

That's why it is of particular issue in London, where within a tiny area you can have very very wide demographic.

And explains the mania for getting into faith schools. I am sure most stick to proper admission criteria, and as such, actually offer 'the best' to children whose parents can't play the buy-house-in-catchement system.however the 'go to church regularly' stipulation in over-subscribed schools does preclude those who are deeply chaotic and dissafected and can't do anything on a regular basis or with routine and discipline - and those who don't care enough about education to take anything other than the path of least resistance.

I guess a lot depends on how narrow or wide your view is. Some people seem to go through life with very little sense of collective responsibility. They are totally obsessed with their own nuclear family unit and everyone else can go hang, whereas other people genuinely have more interest in how wider society fares. The thing is, ultimately our children will all have to live in the real world. Which will inevitably involve purchasing goods from the check out girl at the supermarket. Maybe even coming across (heavens forbid) people with a disability or from a different background. So probably an education that doesn't segregate in an extreme way is desirable.

i don't feel entitled to a place for my child at the 'best' school (i presume by that you mean the best in the eyes of ofsted)

but i do feel it's my responsibility to ensure that my child receives the best education i can give him.

the two are not neccesarily the same thing.

I don't think that anyone necessarily has the right to the best school, because the implication is that other people might not have that right, or are in some way undeserving. Neither do I think that in some Golden Age bad schools did not exist, but the results of poor schooling in a more information orientated age are more damaging for both individuals and for society as a whole. It is bad for the whole society and economy that so many of our children come out of school unqualified, demotivated and indeed unfit for work. There is no evidence that producing unproductice citizens is helpful to anyone (even the rich) and historically countries tend to import unskilled labour when there are shortages.

In unswer to UQDs questions, no I don't feel entitled, but I do feel very fortunate to have more options at my disposal than most to make sure that my children go to a school that suits them and where they have the chance to fulfill their potential.

As to the variation, well there will always be some, but we should be working harder as a society to make sure the variation is positive, or at least that the worst schools are still "good enough".

As to whether it is in some way parents' "fault", no I don't think it is, because if there is variation you will always get some gaming. I think it's human nature for those who can gain advantage for their children to do so.

oh and for what it's worth my ds has got a place at the local school at the end of the road which just happens to be the 'best' school in the county. but that wasn't actually my first choice on my school application, and am not entirely convinced it is the 'best' school for my ds, but hey ho, i'm grateful for what i've got.

I am not British. I come from a country with few private schools, in fact there weren't ANY in my home town (industrial port town, pop. 120 000ish).

You went to the school closest to where you lived. Period. Nobody 'tried' to get into anywhere.

We may not have had any choice, but there didn't seem to be any sink schools. Of course, neither was there an Eton. They were are good enough. I grew up on a medium-dodgy estate fwiw.

I think of when dd is older, will I have to impersonate an Anglican/rent a PO box/pay a squillion quid so that she can have what I had for free?

Do I think I am entitled to the "best" school for my child. It depends what you mean.

I think that every child is entitlted to the best type of provision. For my son the best type of provision is the mainsteam infant school around the corner. The school had a "good" in its last OFSTED and its good enough for my son.

What I find shocking is that a lot of children with major special needs do not get the best school for them. For example in our county there were more kids with learning difficulties who wanted a place in an MLD special school than there are places. Instead of opening another MLD school our country wants to close another MLD school and force even more children into mainsteam.

Or else children with extensive special needs who are in mainsteam school do not get the levels of funding to make it work. Don't get me wrong, I think that inclusion can work well, but it needs to be paid for otherwise its unfair on everyone.