Isn't "wot do we 'ave to put fer this" for most depressing question?

[UnquietDad]

As part of my work I teach writing classes, often for school pupils (primary and secondary) with some of these based in school and some based "on location" in places like museums ands galleries.

There's a team of us who do this, with 2 allocated per visit; we always pair up, so that if we get 30 kids we can have half the group each and then swap at lunchtime.

When I do museum/gallery sessions, rather than just throwing them into it (lots of kids won't ever have been to an art gallery before) I give them a "note" sheet with a few ideas/questions on it in quite a structured way, with the idea that this will form the basis for their writing. I often do a "grid" of questions with room to write ideas in for several paintings, with questions like "Who's in the picture?" "How did they get there?" "What time of year is it?" etc.

Sometimes this works well. Sometimes it doesn't. You can tell when it isn't going to, because you get lots of them asking THAT question about each part of the worksheet:

"Wot do we 'ave to put fer this?"

Primary school kids are usually better, because they are quite happy to use their imaginations and realise there is no "right" or "wrong" answer. But KS3/4 kids take it all so bloody literally. They want the exact answers, and they want to be spoon-fed them. (For "What time of year is it?" I swear nearly all of the last group copied down the date the picture was painted. And for "How did they get there?" I had some of them asking "Wassat mean?" and "Ow do we know?")

And they think that's it. Job done. All answers filled out. Hand in "the sheet" and, presumably, they think they can go off and do whatever they like. They are astonished to discover this is only intended to be the start of their piece of work.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, because I have, often, worked with some great kids who have produced some really imaginative work. But to me the fact that I can be asked these god-awful literal questions is either a damning indictment of a National Curriculum which suppresses individual, imaginative thought, or of a generation of dullards who don't know how to use their imaginations.

Comments etc. welcome!

People are missing the point about the worksheet. It;s just something for them to make structured notes on so that don't launch straight into "writing a story" - it's not a "task" in itself.

seeker, that sounds like a great homework!

That Julia Roberts film, Mona Lisa Smile?

The problem is that I have increasing numbers of students who will not do 3-5 minutes of reading/writing in order that they can then do a practical.

they want to be 'entertained' all the time.

and while I do try to make my lessons interesting and entertaining (in part for the selfish reason that I want to be entertained myself) sometimes the actually have to read stuff and put pen to paper.

I see your point totally UD, this was preparatory work that they needs to do, so that they could get the most out of the whole experience. Being teenagers they may not have bee wise enough to see that, being adults we should collude with them.

UQDad- I am not missing the point about the worksheet; what I'm trying to say is that even them simple act of handing them a piece of paper to record on encourages them to precieve the task and the skills needed in a certain way. These are kids who have been reared on pen and pencil recording mostly in the form of worksheets. However nicely it is presented it is still a worksheet with all its inherent weaknesses. Witht the right stimulus and input I am pretty sure that some really creative writing could take place without needing a worksheet at any stage...

I wondered how many posts it would take before it was my fault.

UQD - I agree with you completely. I don't know exactly when or why it happens, but sometime between yr6 and yr8 many children seem to completely lose any passion for learning, a desire/ability to think laterally and be creative, and a sense of independence/responsibility for their own learning.

Our yr11s - many of whom have dossed around for the last 4 years putting in zero effort whatsoever - will happily tell you that their GCSE results will be the fault of their teachers.

This is my frequent scenario though

• Teacher carefully explains the task
• Does some discussion/feedback around the area to help get them started
• Asks if anyone has any questions
• Tells them to start work

Five minutes later goes round the class to pick up the half dozen who haven't yet started, and picks up the inevitable question (in an irritatingly whiny voice): "I don't understand. What do we have to do?"

I'm not saying that it's your fault. I'm saying, that for a variety of reasons, we have to fling ourselves through hoops to engage some children. (Again, not your fault, but the end product of some children's schooling and home life. ) And, yes I am perhaps trying to gently suggest that handing them a piece of paper immediately switches some kids off and puts some kids into a stupor.
So, why not see if NOT giving them anything worksheet like makes it worse or ....?

Maybe not the teachers but the education system itself, which is represented by the teachers in the eyes of the students. Not necessarilly my opinion but just a thought. What is it that makes so many lose all those things all around the same time? There must be something.

But see this in the context of the wide variety of workshops I do. With some I use "handouts" and with others I don't.

I found one primary school G'n'T class where I explained at length that what I wanted them to do was a sort of diagram, like a spider, or a tree, with ideas going off in all directions and so on - and one of them said "I get it, a mind-map", and of course they all knew exactly what I meant then and did it brilliantly. Case of my trying to reinvent the wheel!

riven - I'd love to do a session for a group of Home Ed kids. As far as I know we've never been asked! Probably because the school normally pays for the session, and so it would mean parents paying...

martianbishop - thanks for your posts on this; I'm pleased to see that my thoughts are borne out from the other side of the staff-room door!

There has been far too much interference in education by people who know nothing about it. Teaching to the syllabus/teaching to the test seems to be difficult to avoid. I feel very sorry for teachers.

That said, ds is studying A level chemistry. He has 2 teachers. One is the head of department and is a fantastic teacher who will answer all questions and allow quite a lot of discussion. The other refuses point blank to answer any question that is "not on the syllabus". He finds it really frustrating, but now he just writes down his questions and asks the other teacher. He hates the lessons with teacher number 2 and is beginning to skip the occasional class, which is worrying.

It is depressing.

UQD, I agree with you. The worksheets may or may not be exciting etc. but the children have been told they are a necessary pre-cursor to the main task and they should therefore be able (and willing) to complete them. Education is not and cannot always be fun! Nor should it be, much of working life requires the assimilation and contemplation of information which is anything but interesting.

I have witnessed the product of the national curriculum teaching at a post-grad level. I was teaching a year long course required before entry to the legal profession. The point of the course is meant to be to allow students to translate their accademic knowledge to practical advice which can be given to clients and also to teach them some of the key areas of law which they may not have looked at in their undergrad degrees. I was shocked at how often I was asked "will this be on the exam?" - to which the answer was "I have no idea, but it may save you from being sued for professional negligence".

Students are so exam centered that they no longer had any time or desire to engage in real "deep learning" which would stay with them for their entire careers rather than be forgotten 5 minutes after the exam.

Ah, worksheets and spoon-feeding. Along with gap fill and colouring, the four main foundations of a state secondary education. and people wonder why I'm happy to spend loadsamoney every year to avoid my children that wonderful experience.

You sound as though you're attempting to do sterling work there UQD, but you are dealing with young people who have hardly ever been asked to use their minds, dare to be different or do anything except be coached to pass stupid closed-question tests in which you lose points for inventiveness.

Some of us feel the same way but don't have the choice, sadly

3 little frogs

you say

'That said, ds is studying A level chemistry. He has 2 teachers. One is the head of department and is a fantastic teacher who will answer all questions and allow quite a lot of discussion. The other refuses point blank to answer any question that is "not on the syllabus". He finds it really frustrating, but now he just writes down his questions and asks the other teacher. He hates the lessons with teacher number 2 and is beginning to skip the occasional class, which is worrying.'

and I have a great deal of sympathy with your son. I also have some for the teacher who doesn't dare to stray off curriculum. We have so little time to cover very large courses, that you have to very, very careful that while helping to develop their thinking skills, you also cover the work required. And sometimes aswering a lot of 'off topic' questions can be off puting for other members of the class who might be struggling with the more basic concepts.

I do answer extra questions and enjoy it very much. but there comes a time when I have at say 'at the end of the lesson'. Thankfully the kids trust me enough to know that I will answer them, but sadly sometimes curriculum needs have to come first.
and this is crap, but at the end of the day the kids I teach need to love the subject, and get the 3 As at A level to get on the course they want. It is sometimes a tricky line to walk.

I totally agree with you MB. As I said in my post, there is far too much interference and I feel sorry for the teachers. I am very thankful though for the teacher who does manage to keep ds keen and interested. I know how hard it is to keep boys on track at this age. Ds is predicted straight As, but it isn't in the bag yet.

did someone say

a damning indictment of a National Curriculum which suppresses individual, imaginative thought?

uqd i think you were right first time

Quote from ds (doing physics homework last night)

"The thing is, mum, as soon as you see the question, you know what they want and you just churn it out. It's boring, but you get the job done."

I am not at all clever, but I loved physics when I was at school.
How on earth did it get boring?

The curriculum for Biology A level is very big (can't comment about physics, but I do know that one of our members of staff now teaches part of the A level physics sylabusfrom the book that I used for O level)

And you have to cram so much stuff into each lesson it is amost impossible to let them actually think about it. And to be honest some of it is so complex even the brightest are not going to be able to work it out from scratch.....I'm thinking spacifically of things like the action potential of neurones, the structure of the retina etc.

Fortuntaly for me, teaching biology, there is enough 'real world' connection for the kids to find it interesting.....yesterday for example we had to cover the effect of light on Rhodopsin in the retina, not amazingly interesting in itself. But when you point out the links to dark adaptation of the eye, the kids do find it interesting

I don't mind there being guidance on what we teach....there has always been an examination sylabus to work towards, even in the days before the NC, but there is simply so much stuff to cover that you never have the luxury of time to allow them to reflect

this made me remember what DH said when he worked in an FE college library. The kids would come in with their assignment questions, hand them over the counter to the library staff, and say 'where's the book for this?'. One question, one book, one answer. No effort. He left after 6 months due to frightning urges to start throwing the students out of the window...

You'll never pass threashold if you throw students out of the window

I teach kids of 11-18 and even the sixth formers , when asked to find a definition for X will say, 'What page is it on?'

and in the lower school they constantly pester you to check every single answer, the second that they have written it, 'Is this right miss?'

I have never, ever told a child off for getting something wrong. I have a poster on my wall that says 'I don't know yet is not a wrong answer', but this constant demand for spoon feeding does my bloody head in!

MB, is it true that a common approach for coursework is for children to submit a draft which then receives detailed comments on how to improve it, they revise it and it is then marked?