Isn't "wot do we 'ave to put fer this" for most depressing question?

[UnquietDad]

As part of my work I teach writing classes, often for school pupils (primary and secondary) with some of these based in school and some based "on location" in places like museums ands galleries.

There's a team of us who do this, with 2 allocated per visit; we always pair up, so that if we get 30 kids we can have half the group each and then swap at lunchtime.

When I do museum/gallery sessions, rather than just throwing them into it (lots of kids won't ever have been to an art gallery before) I give them a "note" sheet with a few ideas/questions on it in quite a structured way, with the idea that this will form the basis for their writing. I often do a "grid" of questions with room to write ideas in for several paintings, with questions like "Who's in the picture?" "How did they get there?" "What time of year is it?" etc.

Sometimes this works well. Sometimes it doesn't. You can tell when it isn't going to, because you get lots of them asking THAT question about each part of the worksheet:

"Wot do we 'ave to put fer this?"

Primary school kids are usually better, because they are quite happy to use their imaginations and realise there is no "right" or "wrong" answer. But KS3/4 kids take it all so bloody literally. They want the exact answers, and they want to be spoon-fed them. (For "What time of year is it?" I swear nearly all of the last group copied down the date the picture was painted. And for "How did they get there?" I had some of them asking "Wassat mean?" and "Ow do we know?")

And they think that's it. Job done. All answers filled out. Hand in "the sheet" and, presumably, they think they can go off and do whatever they like. They are astonished to discover this is only intended to be the start of their piece of work.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, because I have, often, worked with some great kids who have produced some really imaginative work. But to me the fact that I can be asked these god-awful literal questions is either a damning indictment of a National Curriculum which suppresses individual, imaginative thought, or of a generation of dullards who don't know how to use their imaginations.

Comments etc. welcome!

sorry, header should say "...THE most depressing question!"

Wot d'you want me to say to this?

Will I still get full marks if I say I dunno?

Will I get more than full marks if I say I dunno coz I've got an 'eadache?

Yes, I was going to say too much testing (classic Grauniad reader's response I suppose).

Also, do you make it clear to them before they start that they are supposed to be responding imaginatively, not literally? Perhaps you need to labour the point a little? Tell them very clearly that there are no 'right' answers?

I'd say it's the effect of the NC and "teaching to the test" - the children have learned that there is one right answer, which matches the one on the marker's sheet, and that is what they are expected to produce...

'Is this on the syllabus?' was my light the blue touchpaper question, especially from A level classes.

Although you can't blame them for being exam-focused really.

In the end, I had them trained to ask 'Is this a fascinating piece of information about the subject we chose to study - or do we just need to know it for the exam?'

Could you ask questions that don't have a "right" answer?
"How does this picture make you feel?"
"What do you think that person might be thinking?"
"Would you have painted it like this or put those people in a diffrent room?"

etc
Just a thought

There is student 'worksheet mentality' which is why I don't use them very much in my teaching. Can you ditch them?

Or failing that, join me break on Tuesdays for the 'apathetic philistines' rant, then take a deep breath, feel refreshed and be willing to hug a hoody once more, gor love' em.

If you are at an art gallery, all you need are your eyes. The last thing you need is a pencil and paper. Who are the sheets really for?

Not sure if this is relevant but my dd (7) did a "children's trail" around the Tate Modern recently and she was getting stressed as some of the questions on the sheet were a tad ambigious. One of the questions was something like "has the artist taken a chance?" (yes where they had a wardrobe filled with concrete, with a chair stuck in it) but a few of the pictures my dd was looking at me to provide the 'right answer'. I tried to explain it's what she thought was the meaning behind it. I can see why you'd want these points jotted down though - it's something to start a discussion with and useful to look back on once the group has had that discussion.

they need to be taught how to use their eyes in an art gallery though.

What depresses me about education in germany, is that "what are we supposed to put?" always gives you the full marks. Even when you are doing creative writing

Oh Dear God, you are so right, and the sad thing is, that this has happened to me so often now, that I tend not to notice it!

The thing that gets me is this.

'Read the paragraph and use thie information to answer the question ' (ie, the answer is actually in the paragraph.)

'I don't get it , Miss, what is the answer?'

'I'm not telling you. Read the paragraph and answer the question'

'But I don't get it'

'Look, the paragraph says, 'She cut off their tails with a carving knife' and the question asks, 'What did she use to cut off their tails?' So, what is the answer?'

'But I don't get it'

Repeat ad nauseam

Teaching to the test is part of the answer. Can't be arsedness is the rest. they would rather ask you, because they know that you know the answer, and if you tell them they don't have to do any work.

What do we expect really from a generation who within two minutes of getting home from school can be shagging a blonde in their motor on Grand Theft Auto IV - it's so real the car even shakes?

I have to admit I found it rather depressing at DD's Parents' evening, when having heard her History & Psychology teachers both tell us that they enjoyed DD's essays because she writes so well, the English teacher pretty much told us that writing well didn't really matter - DD got her good marks because she 'jumps through all the hoops' This was at AS level...

It used to be university students who worked out the most efficient ways of studying - it's a shame it's percolated down to primary school kids trying to bypass actually doing some work. Mind I would have been the child at the back of the room staring at something totally different to what the guide was talking about.... .

My sons' school do a lot of IGCSEs they are much less prescriptive than GCSEs. My 16 year old son says that he honestly thinks it's true that you could train a monkey to pass some GCSEs.

policywonk - they have the day booked as a Creative Writing session, and so in my naivety I rather assumed they'd know that meant there are no right and wrong answers! Although I do say so, quite frequently.

lacomtesse - as I said, the primary ones seem to get the hang of it - it's secondary who don't!

swedes/heated - I disagree. They need something to make notes with or by the time we get back to the education room they have forgotten everything they saw.

That's why I was so pleased when dd's holiday homework this holiday was to "read at least two books outside your comfort zone" And they don't have to write anything about them - they have to be prepared to discuss them in class and explain why other people might want to read them (or not) but no formalized book review or questionnaire to complete.

I also think that it's teaching to the test that is at least partly responsible for this attitude. The children learn that there is one right answer that is being looked for. No marks for straying from the keyword that are part of the mark scheme for a lot of answers. By secondary school they are well versed in this. In early primary they have yet to learn it. I've seen it happen to varying degrees with my own children. It's not always that they are too lazy at secondary just that they are not confident second guessing just what is actually being looked for by the marker.

Years ago someone told me that now they could get the National Gallery online, there was no need for A level students to go on a trip there any more. It was a teacher - admittedly not an art teacher!!
Performing/creative arts are being squeezed out of the curriculum and this is part of the result. Art and music are seen as non-academic in our increasingly test-obsessed nation. Geographically there are areas where people don't have access to high quality arts events and there are fewer and fewer school trips as everyone does another SATS paper. There's a huge amount of inverted snobbery towards arts. Not all children are lucky enough to have exciting inspiring teachers (mine are, but Ofsted rated the school poorer than the tick-box no-risk-taking school I took them out of because it was stifling my children's creativity AND had worse results....).

I completely agree with Swedes and Heated on this.

Dump the worksheet. The worksheet, not the children, are at the root of the problem.

My sister used to teach American undergraduates History of Art. One of her favourite activities was getting the students to act out the "next five minutes" of the painting.

What a great idea, Anna.

Hate to say it but dump the worksheets!! If a piece of art inspires them, they will not need a worksheet to remind them of it. Do you need a worksheet to remember how a work of art took your breath away or to remind you of the best book you ever read? Help them to open their minds and just take in the art. Encourage discussion and ask them to vote on their favourite work at the end.
You can only help them to open their minds they have to put the rest in themselves.

Anna, that reminds me of that Julia Roberts film where she was an arts teacher. What was it again??

I think you are right to despair of the type of learners that our society is churning out. That's not just a criticism of educational establishments but of parenting and family life too. However I think that giving a child a worksheet is just not the way to ignite their enthusiasm and encourage them to step outside of their comfort zone and think outside the box. There are numerous ways to get them going without them having pen and paper in hand.. try it and let us know..

Most museums offer worksheets for children even on private visits. I do tend to take them for my dd since she is a bolter so it slows her down enough to actually glance at the exhibits in passing.

I was very proud of my dd last year when she insisted on taking my then-bf and myself to the 'Cow picture' in the National Gallery she'd been shown on the school trip a few months earlier. I was even more impressed she'd remembered where it was...